Muddy Waters

Original Air Date    11.26.2018

In This Episode

This is the finale, but not the end. If you’d like to help the family in some small way, please visit: www.ForKasha.com.

“We've seen a lot come to light in a short amount of time. All I can say is, good luck hiding this forever, guys. The clock is ticking.” - Payne Lindsey, Host/Producer


Jennifer: 00:00 I tried to message her. I tried to call her, and I'm thinking, well maybe ... Because I had two phone numbers in my phone, I called both of the phone numbers and ... I reached out on Facebook, and even before I reached out on Facebook, I started messaging her ex-boyfriend. I knew something bad happened.

Payne Lindsey: 00:19 This is Kristal's aunt, Jennifer.

Jennifer: 00:29 We talked not long before she went missing. She told me some stuff. It was like the last time I talked to her, we kind of cut the conversation short because some of her friends were coming over, or actually they were knocking on the door. She just said she loves me and we'll talk later. I mean, we were planning for her to come out here with Kasha for a visit. Then I see all this stuff all over the papers, so I contacted the police.

Jennifer: 01:15 It's just, when I spoke to the police originally, I don't think that they realized what they were dealing with. They were so interested in getting her belongings out of her apartment, and I asked them, "Where's her phone? Where's her computer?" They're like, "It's there at the apartment," and I'm like, "Why don't you have it?" I just feel like they just thought she wandered off or something, and I know she didn't. I know it in my heart.

Jennifer: 01:50 And my niece is the type of person, if somebody knocked on her door and said, "Hey, want to come over for dinner or something?" she would've just left with them. She wouldn't have thought anything of it. That's where I'm like, somebody out there, they know. She was a trusting person. You hear all these things. Then before then, she said something happened to her and I told her she needs to call the police, and she felt like she wouldn't have any evidence because she let too much time pass. She believed it was more than one person, but she didn't know.

Jennifer: 02:37 Now everybody talks about Catfish and everything. It's not just him. There was another guy involved. Somebody wrecked her car, and I think she took a lawsuit out on him. I don't think he was very happy about the situation and there's somebody else named Matthew. I don't know who Matthew is, but like I said, even the last time I talked to her she said people are coming over. And I mean everybody was her friend, or so-called friends.

Jennifer: 03:30 You watch these movies, and you see people that were kidnapped and held hostage for years. When that becomes your only hope, it's no hope at all. I just ... I mean I know she's not here anymore. I know that, but I don't know if we'll ever find out what really happened. I just know whoever did something to her will be tormented on the inside, even if they never come to justice.

Payne Lindsey: 04:50 From Tenderfoot TV in Atlanta, this is Up And Vanished. I'm your host, Payne Lindsey.

Unknown friend: 04:58 Kristal was an acquaintance to me. I knew her through friends and stuff and definitely a cool chick. I was with her, I don't know if it was a few days or a few weeks before she ended up going missing, so it kinda weirded me out with that whole situation then. She asked me for a ride to one of her friends' house. I took her there and I had to use the restroom, so I went in and met this guy, and like immediately when I walked in, the place was super, super messy, hoardy-type looking stuff. I was like, oh, okay. And then this guy introduced himself, and he introduced himself as a Catfish.

Unknown friend: 05:40 Part of the reason it's taken me so long to get back to you was because I couldn't remember this guy's name and once you came out with the podcast and stuff, my friends told me, I looked at it, and I saw one of your episodes was named Catfish, and I was like, "Holy crap, that's that guy." Anyways, I'm inside this guy's house and asking if I can use the restroom. He's like, "Yeah." And so I go to the restroom and look down on the ground and there's a bag of drugs just sitting on the ground on the restroom floor. I was like, "What the heck, man? Where the hell am I?" And so I pick up that bag of I'm assuming this is drugs, looks like drugs. I walk back out there and I'm like, "Hey dude, this was just sitting on your bathroom floor there." He's like, "Oh, oh my god, thank you, thank you so much!" He was all stoked that I didn't steal it.

Unknown friend: 06:37 I was like, "Yeah, so I'm gonna go." She was like, "Yeah, yeah, I'm fine. I think Nate's gonna come pick me up," or something like that. I was like alright, I'm out of here because that whole place was weird. The whole situation was weird, kinda sketched me out and so I left. And then a couple days later I think it was ... I don't remember exactly how long later it was, I saw Kristal at the brewery or in town somewhere, and I was like, "Hey, what's going on, Kristal?" She was like, "Dude, oh my god, that night that you brought me there, this guy drugged me and hid my phone from me and wouldn't let me leave, and it was this whole crazy ordeal," blah, blah, blah. I think she said Nate had to come pick her up or something like that. I was, "Holy crap, dude. Do not go over there again. That is sketchy. That's why I left. I would definitely not go back over there."

Unknown friend: 07:31 That whole situation from what I experienced with her was messed up and from what she told me, with someone hiding your phone or drugging you and/or whatever, any of that stuff, was just weird and my impression of the guy, I thought he was a tweaker or a schizophrenic or something like that, just really someone you don't want to hang around with you know?

Anonymous: 08:05 The town in and of itself is beautiful, it's just there's a lot of trust fund kids and a lot of trust fund kids and trust fund kids, and so there's an abundance of meth and an abundance of people that have no jobs and nothing to do. The level of sadistic behavior that I've seen from certain people there, I don't know, dude. I called the sheriff's department like listen, I'm gonna end up like that girl and I'm gonna go missing, and no one's gonna know what happened, and everyone's gonna just pretend like it's not a big deal.

Anonymous: 08:34 So when I lived there, I was dating someone who was ultimately not a safe person. When I first moved back to Crestone with my ex, he would always mention Catfish and how much I should get together with him. I have had an interesting relationship with him of sorts. He's always constantly trying to marry me. He'll call me like every three months, ask me to marry him. I think he uses it to tell his parents that he's engaged to me so they'll think there's some sort of stability in his life.

Anonymous: 09:07 I came over there to check on him one day because I know he's kind of a bit out there. I was off work early, went over there, and he asked to transfer like three grand into my PayPal account, right? And then have it put into my bank account, because he was always trying to get money from his parents, and he still is. And he's like, "I'll give you 300 bucks for it." I was like, "Sure." But then he started freaking out on me because it wasn't clearing fast enough, because it was Friday and it wouldn't go through until Monday, and so I went over there on Saturday. He had me call PayPal in front of him. He had me call the bank in front of him to confirm that it hadn't cleared in my account yet. I was like, "Dude, I can't withdraw it because I don't have it there."

Anonymous: 09:46 So he has this upstairs area where it's just like a little loft. So I was trapped there, and he had a gun, for over an hour at least, ripped these prayer beads that he had given me off of me. Don't come ripping off my jewelry. I hate that. Thank god, his dad usually shows up in the morning, will drop off food, cigarettes, alcohol, whatever he needs, sometimes a couple hundred bucks. So his dad ends up showing up, and I'm like, "Thank god!" Who knows, I could've been there for hours. I may have disappeared. Yeah, he pulled the gun out. I didn't think he was going to actually shoot me. He was just trying to scare me. Maybe I should've been more scared of Catfish, but I'm not scared of him. Brandon would always warn me not to, if he offered me a beer or cocktail or something, don't ever take it from him unless it's unopened. He had told me that he had drugged people multiple times.

Catfish: 10:42 You need to call me back. You think that I threatened you before. I wanted to marry you and love you forever. The things you've done are called wire fraud. Do you know what it's called when you con someone to steal from them? Do you know what that's called? I'll let you ask your attorney. Yeah, I'm able to threaten someone if I want to right now, but I'm not. Maybe I'm close, though. Maybe you should call me. Want to get dosed?

Payne Lindsey: 11:17 I had heard the term "dosing" before. I talked to a Crestone local who's had his own experiences involving dosing.

Speaker 6: 11:24 A dose is like a hit you know what I'm saying, but getting dosed is like when someone gives you way too much acid. Catfish is crazy. Like I said, I've hung out with him a couple of days, and the dude is just out there, bro. Dude, first of all, this guy gets Kristal LSD, not paper hits. You know what vials are, right? You ever seen a vial of acid before?

Payne Lindsey: 11:43 No. What's that?

Red: 11:44 Real L, LSD, we call it L. You get your Kristal and then you mix it with water and you shake the shit out of it, but you know that's how you get to that liquid point, and then that goes on paper, or you can just drip it from the dropper in your mouth from a little vial, or if you're crazy you could eat the Kristal, which would probably fry your fucking brain forever.

Red: 12:05 He dosed my best friend so hard. He super dosed him. He left three in a bottle, and my buddy took them and ate all three. It can make you go bonkers and shit. It depends on the strength of the mind of the person.

Payne Lindsey: 12:20 One of his friends, who we've called Jack on the podcast, was allegedly dosed a few years ago. The reason?

Red: 12:26 Retribution, bro. Dude, someone was stealing his Klonopin, bro. They're like Xanax, they're a benzo. I mean, literally left them out on purpose so whoever was taking them would take them and took them, and there was three in there, and he ate all three, and he's fried now, bro. You know what I'm saying, like running through the snow with no shoes on. His fingers ... He got frostbite. His fingers are fucked for life now, dude. I mean yeah, he was stealing, but dude, come on now, this isn't fucking 1800s where we cut people's hands off and shit, you know what I'm saying? He's a little punk, bro. That's why I called him straight on, bro. It's bullshit. No one has fucking no cajones, no fucking balls out there.

Payne Lindsey: 13:12 In the past several months, there's been numerous stories flying around Crestone, involving Catfish cleaning his house sometime shortly after Kristal went missing. There's nothing wrong with cleaning your house, but according to those close to Catfish, he never cleaned his house. The question they're asking is, "why then?"

Anonymous: 13:30 So he told me himself that when they came to investigate him, that he had nothing to do with it, that she'd been over there, that he'd done a bunch of meth with her the night before or something like that, then she disappeared. He sent her a video of all the meth that he had bought, because she was a user of that, and lured her over there. What I heard from him was that when Wayne came, he had had the entire place cleaned out, everything and the dude's a hoarder. He's got piles of computers that he's broken and shit like that, so much stuff, because he has money but nothing to do. He scrubbed the whole place clean, but why?

Payne Lindsey: 14:11 Did he tell you that?

Anonymous: 14:17 Yeah. He laughed about it. Why would you have it scrubbed clean if you had nothing to do with it?

Unknown man: 14:37 You have to understand that Catfish has the ability to hack people's accounts. In fact, he probably knows that you and I are talking right now, or knows that you and I have been talking. That's another thing that makes me think that I'm in danger.

Unknown man: 14:52 He's been on my Facebook. He's hacked my Facebook, knowingly. I knew he was hacking my Facebook. I knew he was on my Facebook at one point. He just knows how to hack. He knows how to get into the system. God, he's hacked Amazon. He was getting free gift certificates to Amazon by hacking them.

Payne Lindsey: 15:09 I've always been told that Catfish was good with computers. So you're pretty good with computers, right?

Catfish: 15:14 No, not really at all. I'm a photographer, and I've lost all my computers and everything I owned.

Payne Lindsey: 15:20 But as time went on, more and more stories began to surface. Here's the Crestone boyfriend.

Unknown man: 15:25 He's pretty good with computers. He's hacked into Brian Otten's account to try to get a hold of me previously. I think Brian left his Messenger on or something, and he got a hold of it. He was using it to get a hold of people and shit. He was pulling up records of people one day when I was over there showing off Brian Otten's fucking records and stuff, and trying to say he was a criminal informant. It was weird.

Payne Lindsey: 15:51 Did Catfish essentially act as Brian and send messages from Brian?

Unknown man: 15:56 He was for a while. He was for a while. Brian was telling me. This was before Kristal went missing even.

Payne Lindsey: 16:04 So you got a message from Brian and then you asked Brian about it and what did Brian say?

Unknown man: 16:21 He came up to me specifically asking if me and Kristal ... Asking if we've gotten weird messages from him, but it wasn't him, that was Catfish.

Payne Lindsey: 16:21 Did Brian say that he killed her? Because if he did, then it's as simple as that.

Catfish: 16:24 Dude, Dready Brian?

Payne Lindsey: 16:24 Yeah.

Catfish: 16:25 It's a direct confession, and I have server side and my end of it, my computer's side, so.

Payne Lindsey: 16:31 Let's put it out there, man. Let's prove your innocence right now.

Catfish: 16:34 So problem is, I lost all my computers when I lost my home over this kind of crap, so I'm having to get back into online storage thing.

Payne Lindsey: 16:43 His online storage thing. I guess he's looking for the screenshots, or maybe some downloaded version of the conversation? Catfish says that Dready Brian sent him a message on Facebook in which he confessed to killing Kristal, then Catfish says he blocked him and eventually turned over that message to the CBI, but now he can't find it. Maybe it's true, but it's just not that complicated. If you don't want to give it to me, that's fine, just say that. But to keep putting it off with new excuses just sounds weird.

Payne Lindsey: 17:13 So I tried something. I made a fake Facebook account and I started a conversation between my fake Facebook and my real Facebook. Then I blocked the account, just like Catfish blocked Brian, and as an extra measure, I logged back into the fake Facebook and deleted the message I sent, something Brian may have done after sending it. Even with the message deleted and his account blocked, I could still see it. I could search it. Unless Catfish permanently deleted the conversation entirely, which would be kind of odd to do, it should still be there right now, right there in his Facebook Messenger. It's not that complicated.

Payne Lindsey: 17:52 How soon after we talked did he call you?

Anonymous: 18:06 Less than like two minutes. It was like immediately. He texted me immediately, and I was like, "You owe me this much money," and then called me, and on the phone with me, and saying that I was going to have to pay him sex or something, and then he was going to call me back and then he hung up the phone.

Payne Lindsey: 18:15 For the past couple years, this person has been living in fear of Catfish, and not long after I started talking to her, she began to fear that her phone and her Facebook had been hacked. She told me that a few years ago, she was held against her will at gunpoint in Catfish's house. Over the last several years, she's had some strange experiences involving her phone, her Facebook, and Catfish. According to her, she's had text messages sent from her cell phone that she didn't write, containing strange cryptic-sounding nonsense. I'm no expert on this, but I've seen this type of typing before.

Unknown man: 18:52 The way he writes is so fucked up, like it's weird. It's like all pieces, almost. It's hard to explain, it's like you're talking to somebody with a speech impediment, with everything kind of flipped around and shit. I don't know. It's weird. It's hard to understand. He writes like he talks in person. He's very like, talks to himself, and I don't know. He's weird.

Payne Lindsey: 19:17 She also received dozens on voicemails from unknown numbers and the voice on the other line.

Catfish: 19:22 I'm still missing my fucking pills. Who did you bring over and what is his name? You have some of the dumbest fucking logic in the world, woman.

Payne Lindsey: 19:34 And countless text messages from random phone numbers were sent to her personally, all of them riddled with familiar context, talking about the FBI, extortion, money and wire fraud. A vast majority of these messages were extremely explicit and vulgar. I'm uncomfortable with even sharing it. As you can probably imagine, the last two years have been extremely hard on Kristal's family. Along with getting answers about her disappearance, their main concern has been Kasha and what this ultimately means for her future. Kasha's living with her loving father Eli and his family in Los Angeles. She has a wonderful and supportive network of people to guide her, but still, she's been dealt a difficult hand at a very young age. As her family's expressed to me before, nothing can truly replace her mother. She misses her and is starting to feel the impact of her absence.

Payne Lindsey: 20:24 One of the many consequences of Kristal's disappearance is that Kasha is now financially supported by only one parent. The team at Tenderfoot TV has set up a GoFundMe for Kasha, and we've kicked it off with a donation of our own. We've gotten to know a lot about Kasha and her family, and our hope is that something positive can come from this tragedy. If you'd like to join us in offering some support for Kasha's future, you can do so by going to ForKasha.com and donate. That's ForKasha.com, F-O-R-K-A-S-H-A, .com. Any donation at all is welcome and appreciated, and all the proceeds will go directly into a trust for Kasha.

Amy: 21:04 She'll call via Facebook video or whatever from her dad's phone, and typically it started off saying, "Can you show me a picture of my mom?" She just wants to talk, and she wants to have that connection, because we're extremely connected. Like, we're all extremely close. Most of the time, and when she's older she'll probably be mad at me for saying this, but we just put the phone down and listen to her talk, and chime in every once in a while, because she's just, "Na, na, na, na, na."

Debbie: 21:39 Sometimes, she'll put the phone down and go do things.

Amy: 21:41 Yeah, she'll just go do something else.

Debbie: 21:43 And you just sit there and wait for her to come back.

Amy: 21:45 Yeah, you just kind of leave it there and hope your phone bill doesn't go up, but it's worth it.

Amy: 21:50 One time, I watched her play basketball for like half an hour, and-

Debbie: 21:55 She told me she taught you how to play basketball.

Amy: 21:57 Oh, she taught ... Yeah, she-

Debbie: 22:01 Over video.

Amy: 22:02 Oh, mm-hmm (affirmative). So I'm really good really good now.

Kasha: 22:05 I've been practicing a lot!

Amy: 22:06 Yeah?

Kasha: 22:06 Yeah!

Amy: 22:09 Well, that's how you get better!

Kasha: 22:13 Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Amy: 22:15 Almost!

Kasha: 22:15 I know! Oops!

Amy: 22:19 Oh, that was so close! You're almost there!

Kasha: 22:24 Thanks!

Debbie: 22:24 She was five years old on March 17th. Just started kindergarten in August. She had never gone to preschool, so most of the kids that have gone since she was three or four are already reading or knowing their letters and all that, so when she started, she was a little bit behind, they said. Now she's writing words and is apparently very good at math, according to Eli. So it's been a real good experience.

Debbie: 22:58 She generally just enjoys everything. She's very curious, so she just wants to know about everything. And she wants you to play with her, and she will tell you what you're going to play and how you're going to play it, but ... She's just ... She's fun. She's really fun, and never annoying. I don't know what it is. Some kids can get to be too much, but with her, it's never enough. Okay, I take that back. Sometimes it's enough, but not usually.

Debbie: 23:29 When it's almost midnight, "Tell me another story," and you've gone through 15 stories already, and you have to make them up.

Amy: 23:34 And you can tell she's not tired, so there's no stopping.

Debbie: 23:38 "Just one more, Grandma. Just one more. I'll rub your back." She said that once.

Amy: 23:44 She's a sweetheart.

Debbie: 23:44 And you gotta make up, you know, the forest with the spooky forest, and what was her ...

Amy: 23:53 Oh, she loves spooky.

Debbie: 23:55 That was her big thing.

Amy: 23:56 The spooky forest. And right now her favorite-

Debbie: 23:58 The witch is coming.

Amy: 24:01 I have this one, her favorite movie is The Ghostbusters.

Debbie: 24:05 But not the original, right?

Kasha: 24:06 There's something weird, and it don't look good. Who you going to call? Ghostbusters!

Amy: 24:14 She loves the spooky. She loves haunting ghosts, and spooky. And last time we FaceTimed, she wanted to tell me about ghosts and things like that, so she definitely ... She's tapped into the spooky spirituality, as well as the mainstream spooky, like "whoo" ghost kind of thing. I'm so curious to know what she's going to be like when she's older. I think she'll be rebellious like Kristal. But she's got Kristal to guide her, so Kristal will tell her what's up when she's acting up, so ...

Amy: 24:56 And honestly, I think if anything, she might become some kind of musician, or at least she'll practice music in her life. She has Kristal's voice, too. I think she'll grow into her voice as Kristal's voice, because Kristal was amazing. And Eli and his roots with the Native American is definitely ... She's going to develop her own very interesting little mix. And I can totally see her being like the little 13 year-old with the garage band, and doing half-tribal, half-Yeah Yeah Yeahs kind of thing. And I think it's going to totally work, because she makes it work, because she's 100% confident in herself, all the time, basically. And if she's not, then she doesn't show it. I've actually memorized some of those, strangely, because they're just too cute, and it's just adorable. And some are about me, so I'm flattered.

Kasha: 25:58 My Amy, hey my love, my [inaudible 00:26:01] the sweetest thing in the whole wide world.

Amy: 26:03 I love this song.

Kasha: 26:07 [singing tribal music]

Meredith: 26:11 What is something you hope from a GoFundMe for Kasha? What would be like a hope of yours?

Eli: 26:18 Mine would be that she has a more stable, I guess "normal" in quotes, but a more stable living environment where she feels safe, and she knows it's home, not moving from place to place or ...

Amy: 26:38 Have her own space.

Debbie: 26:39 Yeah.

Amy: 26:39 Have her own bedroom. I think it's really important to have a little space that's yours, that she can keep her things and decorate. Because she's got so many fun things, like drawings, and all kinds of stuff. And I think it's really important, for her, especially, as a little artistic, creative child, to have somewhere to put those things. Obviously, we want her to be able to work and achieve all the things that a lot of people do, but she's been dealt a lot of crappy things at a young age.

Amy: 27:16 Just make sure, like my mom said, she feels said, because that's everything.

Debbie: 27:19 Well, to have that stability, because that's one thing Kristal never had.

Amy: 27:24 Yeah.

Debbie: 27:24 ... Was a home of their own. You know, her mom, whoever she was living with, it was always one place to another. One group home, one aunt, one whatever. But to give her that continuity and stability, I think would help her a lot.

Eli: 27:50 I really want Kasha to have all those things and opportunities that both Kristal and I lacked, and I know Kristal lacked a lot of things, and they're not necessarily thing-things, but like just security in life. Yeah, definitely education, for sure. I want to make sure she has a stable home. I think anybody that's in poverty has that issue. It's just having a stable home. Just want to her have a feeling like she's not in the wind, ever, ever, ever in her life like Kristal.

Chris Halsney: 28:27 Well, the landlord was pretty clear in that she said Kristal indicated that she'd been drugged and raped, and that she was considering going to authorities to tell her about these people. So that is a legitimate potential motive to kill her. At the same time, when you ask about why prosecutors and police don't actively pursue sexual assaults, statistically, they don't. The Denver Police Department, of the sexual assault rapes, of all the cases that they take to the district attorney's office, eight in 10 are thrown in the trash. Never prosecuted, they don't file charges, they don't even try. They're really tough cases to make in front of the jury. DAs have learned that it's a waste of time and money to prosecute most sexual assaults, and I think it's horrific. And the MeToo movement is going to move the needle on that, but statistically, the reality is district attorneys don't try to charge people with rape.

Chris Halsney: 29:47 It's something that they lose at all the time. They try, they push it, they use a lot of resources, they think they have the right case, they get in front of a jury, the person gets acquitted. Then they've put this victim through a horrific cross-examination, usually calling her everything in the book, from a slut, asking her what she's wearing or why she had a drink with some guy.

Chris Halsney: 30:12 And that defense tactic, though appalling, has worked, historically worked. So it doesn't surprise me that no one investigates crimes of sexual assault, especially if they're date-rapes or familiar. It's sad, but it's just the truth.

Payne Lindsey: 30:31 Chris [Halsney's 00:30:32] heard my calls with Catfish from episode nine.

Chris Halsney: 30:34 There were times where it just seemed like he didn't seem to have the right train of thought. And there were other times he was right on the money. He knew what was going on. Then he'd go down some path that didn't have anything to do with anything. People who are potential suspects, or people of interest to the police, the more they talk, the more someone might hear something that makes sense.

Chris Halsney: 30:59 Maybe they're talking because they want to make sure that everybody knows that they're innocent. And maybe they're talking so that they can throw the blame on somebody else when it's really them. You don't know until the end.

Catfish: 32:04 I've been advised by six attorneys today not to tell you this. I didn't even plan on calling you today. Let me catch my breath here. Jerry Garcia Band. They had a friend named Catfish John. They wrote a song about it. When he passed, they passed the name onto me, basically because they could see that I could belong with everybody, like a catfish can swim in clear waters, brackish waters, muddy waters, sea waters, that kind of thing. You have offended me. Not you, sir, it really simply isn't your fault. All I was saying that you have all this clout. Everybody is all, "Oh, Payne Lindsey said this, Payne Lindsey say that, Payne Lindsey said this, Payne Lindsey say that." I had every available resource to leave, okay? Private jets, told me to leave, all kinds of stuff. I don't run. You know why? Because if I ever do, that's called the head start.

Payne Lindsey: 33:34 Off and on for the past few months, I've talked extensively with Catfish. Oddly enough, a majority of our conversations were about computers and hacking, all topics he brought up on his own, so I just listened.

Catfish: 33:52 I've said some things on Facebook in the past few days that I'll be very glad that I'm friends with ... Before Facebook, things like that, they don't particularly like anything that I do. Facebook doesn't matter, though, whatever's typed on Facebook, because they don't want to admit to the public what they know about how they can prove who's typing what. You know, by the time you start to log in to Facebook, with your first two to three keystrokes, no matter what letters you press, they have like 88% ability to guess who it is logging in. And yet, we're almost legally, daily use our accounts and Messenger, because it's not like on a scale of like one to 10, the key press length harps on it. It's so past my real understanding of it, but they could prove a lot of computer crime like that. But you think they don't know what happened, but that breach seriously released there? I haven't read it. I only made a post. It was kind of a dumb post, because I didn't know it was a national breach.

Catfish: 35:02 I can tell you something about it. I can tell you something. That's what I'm saying, is we can [inaudible 00:35:05] that way, too, if we take their super-soft crystals from him. I stumble into these kind of situations, just sitting on my sofa doing nothing. And they release, and they say it's the most advanced hack. The most persistent, advanced hacking attack at them ever. And Facebook has over like 100,000 attempts to breach the system everyday, all day long, from bots, from people, whatever. A jealous boyfriend shoves through, and global adversaries, everything. Did they say this is the most advanced tech ever? Why did they only scrape 50 million accounts, then, when there's three billion? That's confusing, isn't it?

Catfish: 35:43 I'm planning on something of interest, and that's if you got access to [inaudible 00:35:48]'s Facebook, just say, it's like going into a store to take the money, because you're hungry on the corner, and you've got a 38 or something, and the person goes, "Empty the register. But just give me five dollars." You see? I mean, this persistent attack probably went on for months, and months, and months, and months, and months. I'm guessing it happened seven months ago, and they're releasing it now, saying, "Oh, my God, look what happened yesterday." Dude, they're saying Instagram wasn't harmed by that? I can prove it was. And Facebook, I'm going to stay friends with. Instagram, I respect even more. For one thing, Instagram has disciples, basically, posse.

Catfish: 36:26 One time, I thought about messing with Facebook on a ... I have a computer [ePortal 00:36:30]. It wasn't to steal money or anything. It was to go at like fake [inaudible 00:36:35] and change the word "friend" to "fiend," to where it was like, "you have 19 new fiend requests" or something like that.

Catfish: 36:43 Do you know Katana? Not Cortana, but Facebook's Katana? There's your next million dollar podcast. It's like a virtual reality or something that's all in terminal code that's writing its own language, and it's really weird. Like, it's stuff I still don't understand. I knew computers a long time ago, went to rainbow gatherings for 15 years, came back and said, "Wait? Is this still in the same language?"

Catfish: 37:14 Basically, when I messed around with it on Facebook, I ended up having to go Live Talk on Facebook with guys in suits on Facebook.

Catfish: 37:35 If we were at odds, if we were at a war, you would think that after you've seen everything I've lost, and all that kind of stuff ... You take a finger, I take a hand. You take an arm, and then at the end of the day, no one wins. Those kind of sayings on TV movies, and stuff.

Catfish: 37:51 The last two guys in a war, with all their friends and family beside them, those two last people will have a choice to shoot each other both down, or to sit down, smoke a joint, and at least agree that war sucks, don't it, man?

Payne Lindsey: 38:16 I'm a little confused why Kristal was at your house towards the end there.

Catfish: 38:24 The truth is, I do also. The truth is, she walked over here at three in the morning, barefoot. And I was supposed to say, because I'm just a fly motherfucker, because I'm a bad motherfucker, the kind that rape. The cops said, "Did she come over here to buy pot or dope from you, or smoke with you at three in the morning, barefoot?" Okay, friend, I might give some good pot. And it was, well ... But to think that people are walking across town six miles or so barefoot at three in the morning, because I'm just a sexy motherfucker. That was her reason. And then we sat down and smoked like nine joints. But I might not even be exaggerating. Then midnight came around, and then, you know, three o'clock came around. Smoked another one, maybe had a drink, maybe do the rails, something about that, maybe not. Maybe it's a part of the story.

Catfish: 39:24 Point is, next thing we knew, daylight was coming, and I was there, and it was noon, and friends were stopping by that had wanted to say hello and such. But we were still sitting on the sofa. But we were flirting with each other throughout the night, thinking about maybe we'd hook up, maybe we wouldn't. But then it was noon. And I said, you know what sir, this is where the story ends. We ain't talk about this, because no one gave a fuck then, either.

Catfish: 39:53 It's really just a story, brother. He kept insisting that it wronged her. The same thing you were saying about how he had paperwork saying that she came in and said I raped her, which I know she didn't do that for a few reasons, like very obvious, several reasons. And I know for a fact that I didn't, because it's like when someone says, "Hey do you have something to do with that missing girl?" I don't have to ever ask myself or them which one, because there's never been one, you know? That kind of thing.

Catfish: 40:26 You mean for last summer, or the summer before? Like I know what you did last summer. Don't you mean ... Come on, friend. I did not do this. You gotta back up off of that.

Payne Lindsey: 40:37 I am confused though. What happened after the nine blunts?

Catfish: 40:42 The truth is, that's what I'm telling you is, there was constantly ... Dude, I smoked pot almost everyday back then.

Payne Lindsey: 40:51 Did she leave?

Catfish: 40:53 Yes. Yes, she left.

Payne Lindsey: 40:55 Catfish was always willing to talk about whatever he wanted to, but every time I brought up Kristal, or the last time he saw her, it was like hitting a brick wall. I'll admit, it's been pretty frustrating. For a while, it seemed like all the leads I had had been fully exhausted. But then I got a message that seemed to change everything. This person's name had come up multiple times in the past as someone who had intimate knowledge of what happened to Kristal. As things in Crestone have been heating up, I've heard from a handful of reliable sources that somewhere floating around out there was video and audio evidence of what happened. At first, it sounded crazy, but all the stories kept matching up. This guy messaged me on Facebook, and we started talking.

Money guy: 41:35 Okay, bro. I'll tell you everything that's the truth, but it will cost you $5,000 and I will not do it for less, and it will have to be face-to-face.

Payne Lindsey: 41:49 How am I supposed to believe you? You're going to have to try harder than that.

Money guy: 41:53 I don't have to try harder than that, bro. You want to know what I know about this girl missing? I'll tell you what happened, the whole story, because I know what happened for sure. I was not there, but I've seen a little video and a voice recording of the last night she was at Catfish's. So if you want to know the truth about what happened to her, then it's going to cost you five grand, nothing less, and I will not do it unless you pay me.

Payne Lindsey: 42:21 Hmm. Not sure how this works. I mean, ethically, it doesn't look very good my friend. And why would I trust you?

Money guy: 42:30 You're making money off this little show of yours, so why should I tell you anything for free? You think because I won't talk to you unless I get paid for it, it's not very ethically right? Well, it doesn't matter to me if that's how you feel, bro. And no, I will not talk to you unless I have five grand in my hand, and I will only talk to you face-to-face, not over the phone.

Payne Lindsey: 42:53 There's a $20,000 reward for information. Why not take that? I put $10,000 of my own money into it.

Money guy: 43:00 No one will ever be convicted of it. I don't think anyone will ever be.

Payne Lindsey: 43:05 No, it's only for information.

Money guy: 43:09 Okay, you're wrong about "only for information." It's for the arrest and conviction of the people who're involved. So let's just say the people who are responsible are not alive. Then what?

Payne Lindsey: 43:22 What would I be paying you $5,000 for?

Money guy: 43:25 For what I know and what really happened to her. I'll tell you, okay? Catfish told you that they will not find a body, right? Well, he is not lying. So I know it's really fucked up, but it's the truth. Dude, five grand. You have until tomorrow by noon to decide if you're going to pay me for the whole story of what happened or not. That's all I have to say.

Payne Lindsey: 43:51 Well, I'm not in Colorado right now.

Money guy: 43:53 Well, that's not my problem. That's all I have to say to you. Send the money so it can be picked up at any place in Colorado. You know my full name. Just send me the tracking numbers. Dude, like I said, I've seen a really short video of what they did. I know from what Catfish and ... Have told me as well. So we'll see if you send it or not. Goodbye.

Catfish: 44:34 I'm strong enough at this point to tell you this: he's fucking dead if you really take that. And not because I'm going to come all the way out there and do anything, but because he has this weird comic history where he does some dumb shit like that, winds up dead. And he wakes up the next day and does it again. This one's different. I am totally willing to say shit that's totally against everything any attorney would advise anyone to say, and that's, well, we know who the next one to go missing's going to be. And ain't nobody care. You're very close to losing any ability to talk with me whatsoever, which makes me sad, because we actually had a lot of good things I thought we could do together. He's the least credible person. He couldn't tell on himself if he wanted to. I can say shit like he'd be dead tomorrow, and nothing, nobody cares, dude. No one fucking cares.

Catfish: 45:28 See, I'm not making a mistake. But it's that big of a career mistake for you if you start listening to him, when clearly, he's just says, "Five grand, five grand, five grand. Give me the money, give me the money, give me the money." It means he's out of dope, sir. If you brought him $100 worth of heroin, which I can help you do that in a lawful manner, if you start using his words as credibility in any of your podcasts, your sponsors, your listeners, your own self, will all fade away quicker than we can take the stage down. Do what you want. Just, the warning's there. Do what you want, though, man.

Catfish: 46:13 So now I want my 5K. Now I want my five grand. Now I want my five grand. Now I want my five grand. I want five grand. I want five grand. I won't frame anybody up. Everybody knows I don't kill anybody. But he does. Hell, I know bodies are where his place at, but I won't talk. It hurts, because I thought we were friends. No gangsters are coming after me. He does know some scary people. Those same scary people are the ones that want to call to make sure he's fucking explaining this tomorrow, by tomorrow like tonight, in the next 20 minutes, so if he wants to see tomorrow, it's ... What, 8:00 PM there? He'd better get to thinking. For whom the bell tolls, motherfucker. I don't care if this is on your podcast.

Catfish: 47:07 Hey girls, I need a date. For reals, seriously, put this on your podcast. At this point, you have found a phone. If you do not call me, I'm having a hard time trusting you.

Catfish: 47:21 I am not a hacker. That is why you will never beat me at computery. Hackers make themselves vulnerable. When someone tries to hack me, and forces me to remember how to use a computer, they'll look right back at them. That's just called free money, baby. Yeah, I'm being weird, because I know you record stuff that I don't. Because I remember what people say. Not what I say, but I'm innocent. And I'm finally accepting that.

Catfish: 47:58 You never come up by taking some things. You never come up by hurting people. You only fucking lose in the end. Why the fuck won't people know this? Mr. Lindsey, so I don't even know if it's you. It could be my phone hacking me. I don't know, because a lot of your people have hacked me. In fact, do you know what they're saying about me in one of the ... All that stuff? I need that to go quiet immediately. Like, that has to go if I have to go with it.

Catfish: 48:27 Some say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one. That's right, girl, give me a call. That's how I'm going to use your podcast, Lindsey. It's my new dating app. Baby, baby, it's me. It's me, darling. You know I wouldn't hurt nobody. It's me.

Catfish: 48:42 Anyways, what was I saying? Oh yeah, right. 828-202 ... As long as you're 17 to 21, you're good. I'm not that much of a creep. But I'm 23 in the dark. So listen here, girls. You tired of listening to this man's podcast? Tune in at channel point zero five percenter. I'm not a nomad, I just know I'm mad. Maybe your female podcasters will take sympathy on that and fine that sexy as well.

Catfish: 49:19 The point is this: it's a three or four or five year missing person's case with this much involvement and interest. I can only imagine how fucking pissed the Department of Justice is that they likely going to fuck it doing themselves, and fucking throw it in someone's yard. I'm glad I'm not there and I don't have a yard here.

Catfish: 49:42 It seems like some shit you should keep quiet, sir. Like maybe some ... You know, wait a second. Did I make sense? Any sensemelia, teacher?

Catfish: 49:55 The bitch probably in WitSec. Why else I got reports of feds telling people to shut the fuck up about it? Why else would feds be telling people to stay, shh, quiet about that little theory about her being in WitSec? Because I think she probably ran off on them or something. I don't know what the fuck happened. That ain't for me to think about. I'm not allowed to think about that kind of stuff, because I'm one of those dudes that's called smart and clever.

Catfish: 50:19 Shit, I just thought that I was drunk, but the room's really been spinning. Am I on a fucking ride? What is this shit, dude? You're going to have to pay me to get off of it. No, now I'm off of it. You're going to have to pay me.

Catfish: 50:32 Better idea. Let's earn off of this, since the main focus is money. It's not in clearing my name. It's not in proving my innocence.

Payne Lindsey: 50:45 I've heard a lot of crazy stories throughout my time on this case. Some of them seem really far-fetched, and others seem really damning. It's not really my place or my job to say who's guilty here. I've played you what I've heard, and what I've found, and what I believe is relevant in furthering this investigation. My gut tells me the answer lies within this group of men in Crestone. I think that multiple people were involved in Kristal's death and the concealing of her body. Above all, I'm confident that there are more than a few people out there that can set the record straight right now if they wanted to, but they're scared.

Payne Lindsey: 51:19 But maybe in time the guilt will get to them. And I've learned that money is a big motivator to this group. I've been asked for money a dozen times in exchange for information. My answer to all of you is this: there's $20,000 up for the taking. $20,000. And $10,000 of it, I've put in myself. So if you want some money, come take that. If you know what happened to Kristal, come take this reward money. I can assure you, it's not a hoax. The money's real. You just have to tell the authorities.

Payne Lindsey: 51:48 For some of these people, doing the right thing just isn't enough. Or maybe their information just wasn't credible in the first place. In my experience, these people want money, and they want it immediately, without involving law enforcement. Also, just because this podcast season is over doesn't mean I'm done with this case. We did our best to shake the trees, and it's time to let the dust settle.

Payne Lindsey: 52:09 Kristal's case has been extremely emotional, and I'm so thankful I've gotten to work with her friends and family, who care and fight for Kristal with such unparalleled passion. Right now, there's incredible momentum in Kristal's case, and soon enough we'll be back with updates.

Payne Lindsey: 52:23 We've seen a lot come to light in a short amount of time. All I can say is, good luck hiding this forever, guys. The clock is ticking.

Meredith S: 52:39 Up and Vanished in an investigative podcast told weekly, produced for Tenderfoot TV by Payne Lindsey, Mike Roonie, and me, Meredith Stedman, with new episodes every Monday. Executive producers Payne Lindsey and Donald Albright. Additional production by Resonate Recordings, as well as Mason Lindsey, Rob Ricotta, and Christina Dana. Our intern is Hallie Bedol. Original score by Makeup and Vanity Set. Our theme song is Ophelia performed by Ezza Rose. Our cover art is by Trevor Isler. Special thanks to the team at Cadence13.