EPISODE 10

In This Episode

Tad DiBiase (aka the No Body Guy) advises the UAV team as they gear up to go back to Crestone. Payne talks to “Big Cat.” There seems to be a lot of “cats” in this case. How convenient.

"Catfish" John: 01:02 She wanted to go meet with some guy I don't know.

Payne Lindsey: 01:19 I mean that guys' probably what happened to her.

"Catfish" John: 01:22 I know.

Payne Lindsey: 01:23 Do you think it was Brian? I mean, did she describe that guy she was going to meet?

"Catfish" John: 01:28 Big cat. Big cat. That was it. And that makes it sound like some alter ego of mine. I didn't remember this for years, though, after I was interviewed. So yeah, it doesn't really speak well of me to be saying it now. I've been advised by like four attorneys not to.

"Catfish" John: 01:42 I barely knew her, honestly. I met her at a party, invited her over, she came over either that night or the next day. We hung out and we smoked some pot, drank some wine, things like that. And then maybe one or two other times did I hang out with her. That's all I fuckin' know, sir.

Payne Lindsey: 02:00 You knew her before that, right?

"Catfish" John: 02:00 You know what I do know? Is it's not your job to be harassing me after I said I need space, that's what I motherfuckin' know.

Payne Lindsey: 02:07 You can have it, man, it's fine. It's cool.

"Catfish" John: 02:10 You know, it kind of would be until it happens to you. So give me this space before I say some cruel stuff, please.

Payne Lindsey: 02:16 Okay.

"Catfish" John: 02:19 You find some evidence that says I done it, you air it. Do whatever you want to do because there is none of it.

Automated: 02:24 You have one unheard message.

Big Cat: 02:47 Hey, my name is ... I just got a message from somebody saying that my name was brought up with the Kristal disappearance and that you were trying to get ahold of me. I'd like to clear up anything that was said.

Big Cat: 03:09 Hello? I got a couple messages on Facebook that were kinda creepy and I was just calling to clear up. I don't know what was said about me or whatever questions you have for me.

Payne Lindsey: 03:23 Your name's [censored], right?

Big Cat: 03:24 Yup.

Payne Lindsey: 03:25 Do you have a nickname?

Big Cat: 03:25 Big Cat.

Payne Lindsey: 03:58 From Tenderfoot TV in Atlanta, this is Up And Vanished. I'm your host, Payne Lindsey.

Payne Lindsey: 04:06 After Catfish mentioned a guy named Big Cat, I started searching for him. And I'll be honest, at first I didn't think he was real. But I was wrong.

Big Cat: 04:18 I've lived in Crestone for a couple years now, so I haven't been in the loop with the gossip lately. I just started freaking out because I had people messaging me that I didn't even know about this podcast and kind of have nothing to hide from you guys. I knew Kristal, she was cool. Hung out with her a couple times, she wasn't like a close friend. I mean, I didn't know her too well. She came to my house about a week and a half prior to it.

Payne Lindsey: 04:46 What he told me was that Kristal said she was going to go to your house after she left Catfish's house.

Big Cat: 04:53 Was that the morning after she left your house or was that at nighttime? Did he say when? Because the only time she's ever been at my house, it was at night, but it was well before she went missing. I have my roommate's confirm my story and yeah ... She never came to my house anytime in the morning or during the day other.

Big Cat: 05:17 I had no ill will towards that girl and I don't know why he would try to point fingers at me.

Payne Lindsey: 05:22 I asked about the last time he saw Kristal. What were the circumstances?

Big Cat: 05:27 It was at my house. It was a solid week or two before she was said to be missing.

Payne Lindsey: 05:39 So was that like the beginning of July?

Big Cat: 05:42 I don't remember exactly when it was, honestly, man. I couldn't tell you the month or the date. I don't remember exactly what happened, but I guess she invited herself over. I don't know if we were at the brewery that night or what, but it was just like a casual thing. She kind of invited herself over, having a beer. She didn't seem like she was strung out on drugs. She seemed fine. She didn't seem sad.

Big Cat: 06:17 I've heard all the rumors that go around Crestone and not once have I ever heard my name involved in it. In the past, my name has been ... Somebody has came to me with some rumors they've heard and it was actually a rumor about Catfish, so our names have gotten mixed up in that sense, but I've never heard my name in a part of this story at all. This is the first time I've heard anybody bring my name in anything.

Payne Lindsey: 06:43 How well do you know Catfish himself?

Big Cat: 06:46 I do not know him well at all. He's well known around the town. I mean, it's a small town, everybody kind of knows everybody. But I've just heard his name around town, but I don't know the guy personally.

Payne Lindsey: 07:01 Did you and Kristal hang out a lot?

Big Cat: 07:03 No, we didn't hang out much. I mean, she was over, she was hanging out with my roommates and I and I mean, I wasn't super close with her, but she was just there. She was just a very friendly person, you know, and kind of just invited herself over and hung out one day. I really don't remember what was said. Nothing, obviously, too important was said because nothing stands out.

Big Cat: 07:33 She seemed fine, man. She didn't seem like anything crazy had happened. I wish something would come to mind that she said, but nothing, nothing does, man. It was never a party. It wasn't a party for anything, but it was at nighttime, and I know Catfish said that she had went there during the day and she had never been at my house during the day time ever.

Payne Lindsey: 07:56 In the last couple weeks, Big Cat has been hearing tons of rumors involving his name.

Big Cat: 08:02 I mean, somebody ... Okay, this is what was said, actually. That there was a Full Moon party at my house, I guess, and that she was at this Full Moon party, which was a lie. I never had parties at my house. I lived with a newborn baby, I lived with like four other people. I had roommates, so I had to respect them. They remember the night she was over, too, and I have nothing to do with that, and that whole drug culture, I stay away from that. I don't throw parties, I don't invite those people into my house. I don't know why he would point fingers at me. If he's trying to shift the blame off from him, I don't know. I don't know that guy, I've never had any bad blood with him, so I don't know why.

Big Cat: 08:39 I don't know why anybody would want to kill her, she was a fun, go-loving girl, you know? She was easy to get along with, everybody liked her, you know? Easy person to get along with if you don't even know her and just meet her on the street. I don't know why anybody would just want to harm her. I'm not worried about it, dude, and I'm not worried about Catfish trying to slander my name. I had alibis, I don't have parties at my house, I have roommates that can be alibi and a newborn baby in there, so I mean ... I don't know how to get in touch with him, but I will totally call him and see what he has to say about that.

Big Cat: 09:18 I will message him on Facebook, dude. Hopefully I get a response. Maybe he'll call me, but either way, I'll try to get a screenshot or record it for you. I don't know him well at all. I just know I don't think that he's a violent, bad person, but he just has a lot of problems. I'm going to hit him up and I'll have a response for you by tomorrow for sure.

Payne Lindsey: 09:56 Big Cat was very adamant about clearing his name. He was willing to call Catfish himself, and confront him about what he said. I was anxious to hear how that would go. After we talked for the first time, he sent me the contact information for his roommates, who he said would corroborate the last time he saw Kristal, which was more then a week before she was reported missing. He also sent me an official statement of sorts, about what all he remembers during his last encounter with Kristal. He said this:

Payne Lindsey: 10:22 "The last time that I saw her was the firs week of July sometime. She kind of just invited herself over, and she left that night. Had not seen or heard from her since then, but she seemed happy. She may have had a drink in her hand, so she may have been drinking, but was not out of control and was not on drugs to my knowledge. She left that night. Not sure what time, but it was not extremely late. I honestly don't remember what our conversations were about, so there obviously wasn't something too important said, but I don't remember her saying anything before she left. She seemed fine, honestly."

Payne Lindsey: 10:54 I corresponded with some of his roommates, and the story was the same there, too. Coincidentally, after the last episode aired, Kristal's sister Amy realized that some of her friends knew Big Cat personally. She called me to tell me about it.

Amy: 11:13 All he said basically was that he recognized his voice and he asked if he was ... He said, "Do you think he had anything to do with it?" And then I said, "You know him?" And he said, "He's a homie." And I asked if he knew his relationship to Catfish and he said, "No, I don't. Big Cat's a badass dude. I can't see him hanging around people like Catfish." But I don't know Big Cat, so you know ...

Amy: 11:40 When he said, "I can't see him hanging around people like Catfish," it makes me think he knows about Catfish and knows what he's about. I can't substantiate it, but just from looking at the writing, this kid [inaudible 00:11:54] doesn't seem to think he had anything to do with it. I said I was just wondering because when his name came up in the podcast, I just thought it was a little bit strange.

Amy: 12:08 What I would be curious is like, is he a homie that he's seen in the past two years? I've got homies that I haven't seen in a while, so Big Cat, I've never heard that until the podcast. Yeah, I haven't heard his name anywhere in the rumor mills. People spend their whole day on those threads making up lies, you know? Of course, a juicy murder story would be a good one to delve in on. Threads are like dreads. There's no combing through them, really, because it's all mumbo jumbo.

Amy: 12:45 I don't know, I just don't get the instinct that this Big Cat kid ... Maybe he knows Catfish, but I just don't have the feeling that he's, honestly, in anyway involved. But I feel like it doesn't hurt to poke around.

Payne Lindsey: 13:02 The next day after I reached out to Big Cat, he sent me some screenshots of his attempts to reach out to Catfish via Facebook. Big Cat sent Catfish a message that said this:

Payne Lindsey: 13:11 "Hey, call me when you can. I've been talking to these podcast people and I was told that you said Kristal went to my house after leaving yours. I haven't seen her since a week or two before she went missing. Why are you bringing my name into this?"

Payne Lindsey: 13:24 Catfish didn't respond. Big Cat also called Catfish on Facebook Messenger. No answer there either.

Big Cat: 13:29 Yeah man, I tried to call him and it won't even ring. It says that it's not allowing me to contact him because we're not contacts on Messenger. It's weird though, last time when I first tried to call him, it was ringing and going through. But I would love to call him and record it and see what he has to say.

Payne Lindsey: 13:53 Eventually, Catfish blocked Big Cat on Facebook, and then randomly, Catfish's Facebook disappeared entirely. Then it popped back up again, this time with a new name. His real name. He's no longer Catfish on Facebook.

Big Cat: 14:05 I would just ask him what he heard from Kristal and why he was trying to bring my name up into it. All these years later and I honestly kind of feel like he's just using my name to get the spotlight off of him and you know ... I mean, I don't know, people know me from Crestone, man. I don't have a reputation like that. I don't think anybody thinks I had anything to do with that. The first time I've ever heard my name involved in this is Catfish bringing it up.

Big Cat: 14:40 Like I said, our names have been mixed up in gossip before, so I don't know if he was trying to use that as an excuse to get the spotlight off of him or what. I hope you guys figure this out, man, and definitely, if there's anything else I can do, I'm here. You got my number.

Payne Lindsey: 14:57 For now, there wasn't much more to explore in the Big Cat theory, but I found it odd that Catfish blocked him when he was confronted about what he told me. But there still wasn't enough information to rule anything in or out.

Payne Lindsey: 15:17 At the Crestone Eagle Newspaper, the editor showed me the ads Kristal's family have been running in the paper.

News Editor: 15:25 Yeah, they ran an ad. And they do that again this month, they've got a full page ad. I haven't heard from them for a while, so he just put another full page ad in, so I think this is either the second, or maybe the third time he's done that.

Payne Lindsey: 15:41 Rodney has remained vigilant in his search for Kristal. Continuing to poke the bear in any way he can, reminding the town of Crestone that they're never giving up in their quest for the truth. He's bought full page ads in the paper about the reward money, and he's personally sent out letters to every resident in town.

Rodney: 16:01 I had sent out postcards at the beginning of the month, addressed to the residents of Crestone. I went through the reward and there was a picture of Kristal on one side and Kasha on the other. It's either this coming ad or the next ad, I'm just gonna start throwing provocative shit out there and hopefully some of it sticks. As long as it doesn't endanger my family, but I'm getting prepared for that to, so if somebody wants to come that direction ...

Rodney: 16:35 The next ad, today I was rewriting it, trying to decide if I wanted to run it this month or next month. I was on the fence about it. "To the persons responsible for Kristal's murder: You know who you are. We know who you are." And I also said, "Animals, and that includes the aquatic type."

Payne Lindsey: 17:00 Before Catfish left town, Rodney was in Crestone himself, and he was talking to the deputy Wayne Clark.

Rodney: 17:06 So I had asked him if he knew where Catfish lived. He took me by his house and it just so happened, Catfish was standing out by the road when we drove by, and he waved. I don't think he knew who I was. He knew who Wayne was. You know, is this guy dangerous? And I've asked him that before, "Well, yeah, he's real dangerous." But the people that he deals are even more dangerous.

Payne Lindsey: 17:38 The Crestone local, David, is also fully aware of the persons of interest in this case.

David: 17:42 Catfish John. I know who he is, and like everyone else, I really want some answers here. I don't know a whole lot about him. I know that there's an awful lot of kind of dark stories about him. Maybe just too much drugs and maybe a little abusive and yeah, but I don't know. I don't know anymore than that. I know he's got a really bad reputation, you know? Which is a shame, but yeah, that's all I can say about him.

David: 18:20 Most stories or rumors have some kind of basis in something. They have to start from somewhere. Somebody knows something. Somebody knows something, we just need to find out what that is.

Payne Lindsey: 18:33 With all the oddities and strange people in this case, it continues to boggle Rodney's mind.

Rodney: 18:39 In this day and age, weird is the new normal, in the sense of I think I can be surprised by something and no, I'm not, because you know, what was the one where the wife killed the lover of her ex-husband and then she married, and they got her 23 years later, she was a clown. You know? When I talk about weird is the new normal, look at the political climate. I won't go there, but well, anything is possible.

Payne Lindsey: 19:20 Rodney and Kristal's family have all heard my call with Catfish now, and they share a unique perspective on what Catfish is saying to me.

Rodney: 19:27 Shock and awe seems to have a profound affect on a lot of people and if the people are on the fence, this may be something that kinda knocks them off the fence.

Rodney: 19:40 Yeah, I think he's probably trying to find out where you're going next, in a sense. You know, trying to keep track, but that won't work. But the more he talks, yeah, 'cause the more you can keep him off balance, the easier it is to topple him over. I fully believe that you getting involved here has prompted CBI to really move forward on this. It's a win-win for everybody if they are able to bring something good out of this. I said this back when, you guys are the key here to this, because you're concerned, you're interested, you're dogged at it and everything else, with the shock and awe affect of it, will just really put Crestone ...

Rodney: 20:32 You get the town fathers, the Mayor, you know, those people and everybody else and you say, "Hey, folks ..." You know, I read their paper and I see all these real feel good stuff and everything else, but, "Hey, guys, you've got a real dark secret here in this town, so let's flush it out."

Chris Halsne: 21:05 The sheriff believes that this is no longer a missing persons case. He's pretty clear. He believes that foul play's involved. I don't know if they've taken the actions that the public believes should occur, if he thinks a homicide happened, but that's what they belief. They don't believe she just walked off. They believe that this is a case of foul play. They just haven't figured it out yet. Maybe they're getting closer. We can only hope. They're talking about it, right? I mean, your podcast has brought that town to speak about this openly, and I believe that they were speaking about it quietly in corners and in their own homes prior to this publicity from your podcast. I think people are really interested now in figuring this out. Even people who live in town.

Chris Halsne: 21:51 Maybe there's some scared people, but I think it's produced more people that are brave at this point. They need to fess up. They need to move forward as a community and flush out the truth. I think you've pushed them to do that. It's not exactly a waiting game, but it's pretty rare that these things never get solved. And hopefully it'll be soon, because people like to have it solved so they can see justice, they can see a cause and effect. An exposure and somebody bad who gets caught and a conviction. It's probably less interesting 30 years from now, right? All the people who really care about her are gone, died, forgotten. It would be best to get it solved now.

Chris Halsne: 22:39 I mean, now's the time, because people are talking.

Chris Halsne: 22:48 Thinking that people want to defend themselves or their good name, I just haven't found that to be the case. Even completely innocent people often just say, "Nope, not going to talk. Don't want to, don't need to. This is silly. I don't need to respond to something so silly." And I always think people should be able to defend themselves and answer questions. I think that that's the best way. I mean, if I was going to advise somebody how to PR their life, it would be "Open up a little bit. You can be cautious in talking to people, but you should talk, explain. Always better." Because people, they can understand lots of flaws, but they want to hear something. And 'no comment's' like the worst thing. But a lot of people choose 'no comment'.

Chris Halsne: 23:34 The sheriff's department, they hCaven't had to deal with very many of these serious kind of cases, so it's not like they have seasoned New York City homicide detectives on staff, because that's not what they do. They probably are better off serving their community with folks who can help change tires and properly deal with domestic disturbance violations and help people on drugs and drunks get to the tank. I mean, those are the folks they should hire out there. You shouldn't waste the money for a crack homicide investigator.

Chris Halsne: 24:10 They should also be willing to openly welcome professionals to come in from the outside. Many of the town rumors about the incompetency of the Sheriff's Department, to me, don't seem very fair. In the sense that I don't think they're set up to look at homicides and I do think early on they recognized that they needed some help. I have to give them a lot of credit for that. If mistakes were made, mistakes were made. You can't go back and change history. Do I think that there was a conspiracy to hid evidence or change evidence or intentionally not look into this as a serious matter for some period of time to let suspects get away? No. No, I just don't think that's at the heart of any law enforcement agency.

Chris Halsne: 24:58 If we see corruption in a police agency, it's a small group of people or one or two people, but it's not usually the whole structure. I never got the feeling of that. I think they're doing the best they can, and by calling in outside help, it gives me I guess some hope that somebody with a second set of eyes, a keen set of eyes with some experience in homicide investigations can spot what they need to, to help the Sheriff's Department locally look good. Like, y'all get credit for it, let's get it solved.

Payne Lindsey: 25:30 Kristal's case has been littered with hearsay. It's been difficult to sort through, but just as you'd expect, certain names and details have stood out over time. Still, Kristal's case is especially difficult in a few ways. One, the timeline is fuzzy. There's not a clear 24 hour period that everyone agree on. That being said, I still stand by my theory, that Kristal went missing between July 13th and 14th. Two, there's no real physical evidence here. In Tara Grinstead's case from Season One, there was all sorts of case evidence. The latex glove, her room was disheveled, her car had mud on it. There was a lot to go off of. This has not been the case with Kristal. The exception being her phone, which is now with the CBI.

Payne Lindsey: 26:10 And number three, of course, there's no body in this case. After over two years, I don't believe this is a missing person's case anymore. This is a homicide and Kristal's family seems unanimous on this too. It's the most difficult kind of homicide case to pursue: A homicide with no body. So I called upon someone who specializes in cases like Kristal's. His name is Tad Dabias, and he's an expert in his field. His nickname says it all.

Tad DiBiase: 26:34 The 'No Body Guy'.

Payne Lindsey: 26:37 Known as the 'No Body Guy', Tad is well-versed in these cases.

Tad DiBiase: 26:41 I've always said to people, "Murder is the ultimate crime and a no-body murder case is the ultimate murder case." So what I do for no-body murder cases is I consult and I teach on the cases, so I will teach groups of police and prosecutors about how to successfully close a no body homicide case and then how to successfully prosecute it.

Tad DiBiase: 27:03 In any no-body murder case, by its definition, you're going to be missing the main piece of evidence, which is the body, and you're going to have to explain that to the jury, that even though we don't have the body, we know for certain that this person is actually murdered, not just missing. It's easier today to make a successful no-body murder prosecution then it's ever been.

Tad DiBiase: 27:28 There's been a real acceleration on these cases for two reasons. One, DNA has jumped tremendously and made it much easier to connect victims and defendants to scenes, and then number two, the electronic trail that I talk about. In this day and age, when someone has gone missing recently, such as in Kristal's case in 2016, it's a lot easier because everyone uses cell phones, text messaging, Snapchat, Instagram, Facebook. They'll post these markers throughout their lives and leave these markers so it's much easier to say, "Look, there's been no indication that this person has been alive during this timeframe."

Tad DiBiase: 28:13 In this case, you'd be able to point out the number of times Kristal contacted her daughter to show that she had a close relationship with her daughter. That she would not go two years without contacting her daughter. No one's going to believe that. Most of us don't change our habits for the most part, you know, unless there's some explanation. You know, "I stopped communicating with my ex-husband because we got in a fight and I'm done with him ... " or whatever.

Tad DiBiase: 28:45 Is it possible that she killed herself? As a factual matter, yeah, of course that's possible. Does that seem to be the way Kristal was? No. Obviously she had some difficulties and people said she may have changed and yet some people who said, "No, she was in a good place." And some people said, "Eh, she wasn't in such a good place." But even in those cases, those bodies tend to be found, of suicides, things like that.

Tad DiBiase: 29:12 You know, I haven't even heard of a suicide attempt before, like you said. She does seem someone who was resilient, someone who's been through a lot of difficult times, certainly had something to live for, with Kasha. That, to me, does not speak to someone who's committing suicide. So then you go to, "Okay, then she's wandering around out there. She gets lost, dies of lack of food and hydration." Well, that doesn't seem likely either, because she's someone who had been in the area, she's someone who is familiar with the area, she's not a dumb tourist going down the Grand Canyon with no water and flip flops.

Tad DiBiase: 29:51 Not saying she's an experienced backpacker or anything, but those just seem unlikely, particularly when you know she was telling people she had been raped, sexually assaulted, by someone and then all of a sudden she disappears? That seems to raise much more alarm flags than a suicide or I'm out doing a walkabout and I passed away.

Tad DiBiase: 30:15 The odds are she had something happen to her and someone intentionally put her away, and as an investigator, you've got to play the odds. What is more likely? Is it more likely she walked away, died, and nobody has found the body? That's unlikely. It's more likely her body is hidden, unfortunately.

Tad DiBiase: 30:33 Look, the longer cases tend to go, the more reliant you become on what people said to one another. The forensic evidence becomes more difficult because time passes and even though DNA can last a very long time, if exposed to the elements or in somebody's house and they've been able to clean up well enough using bleach and things like that, [inaudible 00:30:59] DNA, it becomes more difficult. So as a result of that, you become more reliant on what do people know?

Tad DiBiase: 31:07 One of the things that strikes me about Crestone is it's very small. I think there's a lot more to be gathered from people lived there, who have lived there, who have passed through, who have information. And we've seen that with your show alone. People start coming forward and talking about, "This is what I know. This is what I heard." And to me, that's really how this case is going to be solved. I'm not ruling out forensic evidence, but I think it's more likely that it's going to be when someone finally steps forward and either confesses or other people step forward and say, "This person told me X, Y, and Z."

Tad DiBiase: 31:51 The smallness of the community is a little striking to me, because typically small towns, you know, everyone says, "Small towns everybody talks," and you seem to have some of that here, but not to the extent that I thought. So that strikes me as a little odd, but you know, the overall themes of people committing murder, possibly after some type of relationship or some type of crime occurring, committing a murder to cover up that crime, whether it was a sexual assault of Kristal or an overdose of drugs or whatever it was, those themes I think resonate throughout the time that I've been looking at these cases.

Tad DiBiase: 32:37 Most popular places to bury a body is number one, water and number two, dumpsters. And that's because a lot of these murders actually happen, obviously, in urban areas. In Colorado, the population is less. The number of people per square mile is just lower. It's easier to dispose of a body there than in an urban location. Everything I've heard about this location, it's remote and it can be difficult terrain. It has mine shafts, which right away says to me, if I'm a no-body killer, where am I going to get rid of a body? In a mine-shaft. They're dangerous to go into, and so when you start getting down to where bodies can be buried or just disposed of outdoors, it becomes a lot harder because you're talking about in Colorado, a huge area, a difficult area to search if you don't have some specifics about where it would be.

Tad DiBiase: 33:34 And search parties play a role into that. You've got to really be prepared as a detective to do that. It may mean running down ridiculous leads, it may mean a psychic said such and such happened. You've still gotta run those things down because then at trial, your detective or the prosecutor can say, "Here's all the places we looked at." So that the jury really gets the sense, "Hey, these guys looked everywhere, and they still didn't find anything."

Tad DiBiase: 34:04 You need to look at who your suspect is and where he, I'm saying he 'cause most of the time it's a he and most of the time our victims are female, where would he be comfortable with disposing of a body? If I'm a no-body murderer, I'm not going to go to a location that I'm not familiar with. I'm not going to go on land I'm not familiar with because I might suddenly be staring down a double barrel shotgun of the owner of the property who says, " What the heck are you doing on my land?"

Tad DiBiase: 34:34 Most no-body murders are not planned in advance. Most of them happen because there's a fight between two people. People who were in love, people who are in love, those types of things. So there's not often a lot of planning. The difference here is, if you have the presence of more people, there's going to be more of a panic and "Let's just get rid of the body quickly. Let's get this done, let's get this out of my house and let's go somewhere else."

Tad DiBiase: 35:04 So that could lead to an element of a more kind of slapdash disposal of the body. Yeah, although I will say, from all the people you've interviewed, none of them seem like massive planners. Most missing person cases are not necessarily ones that you could translate into a successful no-body prosecution, because when you don't have the body, it's such a huge disadvantage. You know I liken it to it's like a hundred meter race where the murderer gets to start at the 30 meter mark and I'm starting at the start line.

Tad DiBiase: 35:43 So while I'm a big advocate of doing no-body cases, I'd take a body every single time. If you can find the body, you're always better off because the body gives you so much information about the crime. This case, Kristal's case, I would say you should still be looking for a body, 'cause there's a chance you're going to find something.

Chris Halsne: 36:10 I don't know how you search that area without intelligence. You need intelligence to smartly look. It's vast and again, I think if somebody killed her, I don't think they're geniuses. I don't think that they were going to put her body on their back and carry her eight miles through the rocky terrain. I think that if somebody killed her, they've put her some place that was relatively convenient for them, but I doubt they just laid her out on the ground. Very unlikely. Even the most idiotic criminal would do something to conceal a body.

Chris Halsne: 36:51 The repeated rumor we hear is that Kristal could be at the bottom of a mineshaft. And just trying to figure out if there's any truth to that rumor, we spent quite a bit of time looking for abandoned mine shafts in the Crestone area. I've recently acquired a Geo-coded list of abandoned mine entrances in the area and we're going through and mapping to try to figure out exact locations and some of them are on private property, so you can't just wander around. Others appear to be on public land, BML land.

Chris Halsne: 37:28 What we expect to do is find some possible locations that the Sheriff's Department hasn't looked at. It's just another way to push the investigation forward. If there are 50 abandoned mine entrances in the Crestone area and 47 of them have giant steel welded grates over them, or are filled with boulders, then those are ones that we wouldn't focus on. But if there are four or five that are a little rickety or appear open, if we can identify those, and just ask some questions whether anybody's done any discovery in those areas, maybe that helps. Maybe it doesn't. It's just one way as reporters we think we can help. We're willing to do that work.

Chris Halsne: 38:11 I've been involved with some grid searches for little kids that get lost. There are hundreds of volunteers that walk arm length to arm length apart, mile after mile, looking for little kids that are missing, and those are small areas and they might take a thousand people. Up at 8-10,000 feet, down that part of that state, it's tough in the snow. We are fighting the clock.

Weather Woman: 38:36 Now, I want to break down the timing of this snowfall tonight. This is 8:15, still hanging on to that snow in the high country, and that's really the beginning of our next storm system moving in. You can see it covering the high country. 14 inches of snow. Over a foot of snow in the past 24 hours.

Chris Halsne: 38:54 Snow's an issue. We've been watching the weather. We're trying to get back out to Crestone to do some more work. The work that you're talking about and the work that we want to do requires that there not be snow on the ground.

Payne Lindsey: 39:16 There are two main episodes left this season, and we're giving this investigation everything we've got. Next time, on Up And Vanished, we team up with Chris Halsne and his investigative team to search for Kristal at Crestone, and we're bringing some help of our own.

Tracy Sargent: 39:31 The families deserve the absolute best that we can give to them. And I believe that fully. That means preparing myself psychically and mentally, staying in good shape, being aware of what suspects are doing and what's happening to these victims and then making sure that my partners, these dogs, are in the top physical condition, that they're trained and that we choose the right dog to do this kind of job.

Tracy Sargent: 39:57 Chance, technically, is called a human remains detection dog. Many people know them as cadaver dogs. Based upon what we've discussed earlier, again, with all due respect, if she's out there, or there's scent out there, it's going to fall out throughout the day and it's really going to bring that scent to life. It's going to be really optimum scent conditions for the dog.

Chris Halsne: 40:20 Keep going down that road. We're working our way up that road to the dead end, there's a whole bunch of mines just off that road. We are right now by the sheer water tower and we're in a white Xterra.

Chris Halsne: 40:33 So there's another mineshaft, it says, down this hill, and I'm wondering if this comes out. We're gonna go...

Tracy Sargent: 40:38 Toto, I don't think we're in Kansas anymore. Or in this case, Chance, I don't think we're in Georgia anymore.

Payne Lindsey: 40:44 Can you hear me?

Tracy Sargent: 40:45 We will know more at the end of this day then we did at the beginning of this day.

Meredith S.: 40:58 Up And Vanished is an investigative podcast, told weekly, produced for Tenderfoot TV by Payne Lindsey, Mike Roney and me, Meredith Stedman, with new episodes every Monday. Executive Producers Payne Lindsey and Donald Albright. Additional production by Resonate Recordings, as well as Mason Lindsey, Rob Ricotta, and Christina Dana. Our intern is Hallie Bedol.

Meredith S.: 41:21 Original score by Make Up and Vanity Set. Our theme song is Ophelia, performed by Ezza Rose. Our cover art is by Trevor Isler. Special thanks to the team at cadence 13. Visit us on social media, via @UpAndVanished, or you can visit our website, upandvanished.com, where you can join in on our discussion board. If you're enjoying Up And Vanished, tell a friend, family member or coworker about it and don't forget to subscribe, rate and review on Apple Podcasts. Thanks for listening.