EPISODE 9

In This Episode

We’ve heard a lot of accusations and wild speculation. But, as it’s been put before, someone with a “colorful nickname” emerges in the majority of these stories. It’s time to hear from him: Siluriformes.

Chris Halsne: 00:00:02 guy is If I get an interview, on the record, with somebody who's been accused of some horrific crimes, I've often found that they want to talk. They want to brag about it in some weird way, some cryptic way. The folks who are best to make determinations about what the truth and falsehood of what they're saying is are detectives who know the cases best. I've done a lot of cold case homicides. When I do track somebody down, get that interview, cold case homicide detectives who know far more than I do ... I don't have their file. When they hear what that person has to say, right away they see red flags. Right away, they're going, "That's a lie. Oh, that's not what we heard before. Oh, that's a new detail." They hear more out of it than I. I am just reading them as most of the time trying to maneuver their way out of tough questions without directly admitting to anything.

Chris Halsne: 00:01:02 I've run into accused killers who are extremely bold and I've run into those that are just flat out liars. It's not I that determines the falsity of it, but detectives, prosecutors. They can see small things that trip killers up. If they would find Kristal's body, I'm positive they would know exactly who to go to as their top suspect or suspects. They have suspicions and they have some evidence. A defense attorney, it wouldn't take much to say, "Maybe she's alive." Can't make a case, so finding her is pretty important.

Chris Halsne: 00:01:45 If you have suspects talking, those who know the case best are the ones who can make the determinations whether that person's telling the truth or not. Or, whether they're saying something that's new. It's all new to you, right? It may not all be new to the sheriff. I talked to a guy one time who was accused of killing a little boy and two women. I tracked him down in the Philippines, and when I interviewed him, I said, "You know you're the last person to see her alive?" And he laughed and he said, "Yeah, I guess I was." Not an admission. Just a weird statement, especially when you could defend yourself. But that meant a lot to the detectives, that statement for example.

Chris Halsne: 00:02:39 I think the most maniacal killers are that way. I acquired the Ted Bundy tapes from the FBI archives from a source. Ted Bundy, just before they executed him, he's taunting the detectives right up to death row. He's telling them new details that they didn't know. Tells the police for the first time, when he killed Georgann Hawkins at the University of Washington, she was a sorority girl. He clubbed her over the head with a tire iron, put her in the car, took her out into the woods, and killed her. The next day, he came back on his bicycle to see the parking lot in which he took her from and the police were there and he drove his bike through the parking lot and he saw her earring on the concrete and he picked it up and put it in his pocket. And so he's telling detectives this just before they put him to death. He's taunting them, telling them that they missed something, that he was smarter than them to the very end. Creepy stuff.

Ezza Rose: 00:03:38 (Singing theme song)

Payne Lindsey: 00:04:05 From Tenderfoot TV in Atlanta, this is Up and Vanished. I'm your host, Payne Lindsey.

John "Catfish": 00:04:25 Hello brother.

Payne Lindsey: 00:04:26 Hey man. Is this John?

John "Catfish": 00:04:27 Yeah.

Payne Lindsey: 00:04:27 Hey, this is Payne.

Unknown man: 00:04:27 Ask him if he's recording.

John "Catfish": 00:04:27 Are you recording this?

Payne Lindsey: 00:04:35 Yes. I'm recording this.

John "Catfish": 00:04:36 That's smart of you.

Payne Lindsey: 00:04:40 Throughout the course of our investigation, there's been one name that kept popping up: Catfish. According to the police report, Catfish was the last person to see Kristal alive. At least that we know about. As we've all learned, cold cases like this are full of rumors. It was time to get his side of the story.

John "Catfish": 00:05:08 Listen, you understand my frustration isn't that I got some kind of vendetta against you or something like that. I don't have that kind of mentality. What I've got is, I lived there for 17 years and now I've got a bunch of gossip fucking tweakers fucking talking to me about how ... Why would I hurt the girl? I barely knew her. She's a Rainbow sister. It was my job to protect her. Where are you at with this? Why are you doing this? And why is this happening to me?

Payne Lindsey: 00:05:40 I have a podcast called Up and Vanished and it's about missing persons. I have family in Colorado, so I heard about Krista's story ...

John "Catfish": 00:05:45 Me too. Me too.

Payne Lindsey: 00:05:52 ... and so I started looking into it.

John "Catfish": 00:05:53 Oh, well, how nice of you. So listen, I have not ... Here's how you know I'm innocent. I have yet to take the time to listen to one word of one podcast. You see what I'm saying, friend? I'm done being accused of ... It's the last crime I would ever commit, pretty much. I can't even think of one at the moment, honestly. This ain't like a little bit of selling some pot in the park. This ain't about some fucking ... This is a Rainbow sister who allegedly was all these bad things happened to her. Which, first of all, there's been no crime.

Payne Lindsey: 00:06:33 What happened to Kristal?

John "Catfish": 00:06:35 I don't know. I've told the CBI, the Bureau, and the locals all I can possibly give them and more. Dready Brian, Bryan [censored] ...

John "Catfish": 00:06:50 ... did admit to doing something, but he could have been saying it to be funny or something like that. He's a weird kid. But he basically said he confessed and he did it. However, I'm not able to get involved in that, I'm guessing, because that's called a federal investigation I would be interfering in. So unless you have some kind of large amount of money ... I'm joking. I'm not in this for the money, either. But I'm not in the fucking mood for jokes. I'm being harassed. I ran out of my own village that I built, man. 11 years I was with my kid and now I'm not even with her anymore. So this story about, "We just want justice for Kristal's kid," and stuff ...

Unknown Man: 00:07:34 You want to talk about your kid.

John "Catfish": 00:07:35 Right. Me too. But you know what? I don't ever want to think-

Payne Lindsey: 00:07:40 I mean, are you still friends with Bryan?

John "Catfish": 00:07:41 Fuck no. Why would I be friends with someone after they said something like that?

Payne Lindsey: 00:07:45 Why aren't you friends anymore?

John "Catfish": 00:07:48 Excuse this. He said that he done something that I would be completely against doing.

Payne Lindsey: 00:07:52 Which was what?

John "Catfish": 00:07:53 Look, this is my interview of you, sir. This is not your interview of me, respectfully. I hear your canvas. You're a good canvasser, you did great going door-to-door with Kirby. I do not mean to offend you. I am only saying-

Payne Lindsey: 00:08:08 You're welcome to ask me questions.

Payne Lindsey: 00:08:08 I'll answer any question you have.

John "Catfish": 00:08:09 Listen to me. Turn your recorder off if you want, then. That'd be my question. But secondly, you're not gonna do that and third, I had nothing to do with this. Why would I tell you something that I wouldn't tell any of my friends? Why would I do something like this to begin with? And this hasn't even necessarily ... Hopefully nothing's happened. She's been missing five times before and shown up at Disneyland. Maybe we should check Disneyland. I mean for one thing I-

Payne Lindsey: 00:08:36 Well, I'm not accusing you of anything. I've never accused you of anything.

John "Catfish": 00:08:40 I don't give a shit what you're accusing me of, sir. I'm asking you, have you been slandering me on live podcast for money?

Payne Lindsey: 00:08:46 No. I've never slandered you. I've only spoken the facts and the truth. I learned about your name because of the police report. Kristal was at your house around your birthday, correct?

Unknown man: 00:08:54 Don't answer anything, John.

John "Catfish": 00:08:57 I'm not answering your questions like that, sir.

Payne Lindsey: 00:09:00 Okay. Who's that in the background?

John "Catfish": 00:09:01 You're in this for money. I'm in this for my life.

Payne Lindsey: 00:09:04 All I do is I play what people tell me. I want you to tell me what you know or what you don't know or how you feel about all this.

John "Catfish": 00:09:12 Considering you're, again, asking me to interfere with a federal investigation-

Payne Lindsey: 00:09:17 I'm working with the family. Her daughter, Rodney, Amy. All these people might be-

John "Catfish": 00:09:22 I don't give a shit.

Payne Lindsey: 00:09:24 They all want to know what happened to Kristal ...

John "Catfish": 00:09:25 I know them.

Payne Lindsey: 00:09:25 ... and you're the last person to see her as we know.

John "Catfish": 00:09:28 I know them and they know me and they know I didn't do anything. But one thing's for sure is that your Hoover administration likely has prudence over that little situation there as far as who you're doing it for.

Payne Lindsey: 00:09:46 What do you mean?

John "Catfish": 00:09:47 If I go against the FBI and hand you information that they're sitting on, likely because they know what they're doing and know how to do the job, I could be in a little bit of trouble.

Payne Lindsey: 00:09:59 I know about the Facebook message.

John "Catfish": 00:10:01 You don't have server side dates, do you?

Payne Lindsey: 00:10:09 What's that?

John "Catfish": 00:10:10 Nothing. I'm saying you don't have the recipient end and you don't have Facebook's timestamped server end. Kind of like it being ... Basically it proves where it came from, it wasn't typed at the same ... that it's real.

Payne Lindsey: 00:10:28 So you're pretty good with computers, right?

John "Catfish": 00:10:30 No, not really at all. I'm a photographer and I've lost all my computers and everything I own because I [crosstalk]

Payne Lindsey: 00:10:36 Didn't you give Kristal a $10 computer book?

John "Catfish": 00:10:39 If I did, I have no recollect of it. Oh, a book. You mean like a literary book?

Payne Lindsey: 00:10:45 Yeah, yeah. Like a book.

John "Catfish": 00:10:46 I thought you meant like a Chromebook or something. I know that she was said to have taken one, and I'm happy that she did. It was a very small, very ... What would you call it? It was like the T-ball or the kindergarten of exploring wifi networks. Basically it was ... My name for it, since I don't remember the real name for it, is "How to Hack Amazon for $10 Books on How to Hack Amazon." It was basically about how to get free wifi.

Payne Lindsey: 00:11:22 Someone told me a story about seeing you, some sort of gold, blue van or something, and what looked like a body rolled up and a shovel in the pouring rain?

John "Catfish": 00:11:36 This person's lying to you for certain. Who you're speaking with now is definitely not. I've never been in a van, gold, blue ... She weighed, what? 200 pounds, something like that? I weigh 140. You see that happening with a carpet wrapped up in it? Come on, man. And then I'm the one that has the resources to leave there and stayed for three years.

Payne Lindsey: 00:11:57 From what I can tell, you were the last person to see Kristal.

John "Catfish": 00:12:02 Well, unless she's all alone and left all on her own, obviously that's not true.

Payne Lindsey: 00:12:10 You think she left on her own?

John "Catfish": 00:12:12 What? Sir, you might think I'm an idiot, but you know I'm not this dumb. Do you think that if I did something harmful to her, I would be the one saying that? Then who else said that? 'Cause I sure as shit didn't say it and we know that. If you had a badge, I wouldn't get ... I haven't even listened ... Here's how innocent. Now hear me on this.

Payne Lindsey: 00:12:36 I'm working with the family.

John "Catfish": 00:12:36 Hear me. I want you to hear me. I have not listened to one second of one podcast. I'm that innocent of it. You see what I'm saying there?

Payne Lindsey: 00:12:46 Kristal's family asked me-

John "Catfish": 00:12:47 I don't give a ... What am I to do when I answered every question that I could over and over again as honestly I could? Here I am, exposing myself unnecessarily to things like that, and it's because I actually care also. But I care about my life as well.

Payne Lindsey: 00:13:09 Have people been treating you differently?

John "Catfish": 00:13:11 Brother, I couldn't go to town for three years because everyone looking at me going, "That's the guy that I heard someone heard someone heard did it." No one told you directly that they saw me put somebody in a van, man. I heard them rumors, dude. It's all about "I Heard that so and so heard that so and so saw, the five parties once more removed, John did something. It looked like he went and took the trash to the curb," or something. I mean, seriously, I have nothing to do with harming her in any way whatsoever, and you need to understand that if we are ever going to talk politely.

Payne Lindsey: 00:13:52 On June 28, 2016, Kristal said that she was raped at your house. Is that true?

John "Catfish": 00:14:00 She did not say this.

Payne Lindsey: 00:14:01 Yes she did. She said it to [inaudible 00:14:04], said it Ara, said it to Eli. That's three different people.

John "Catfish": 00:14:07 That I don't know, that don't know me. And the truth is, it is not true.

Payne Lindsey: 00:14:14 What happened that night?

John "Catfish": 00:14:14 What night?

Payne Lindsey: 00:14:16 June 28, 2016. [censored] went and picked Kristal up from your house in the middle of the night.

John "Catfish": 00:14:21 No. Actually, she was scared of him and she left him to come for safety. Now I sound like I'm saying some shit here, so I'm just gonna stop. But that's the truth, from me to you. That's what happened. [crosstalk]

Payne Lindsey: 00:14:35 Why would she make that up?

John "Catfish": 00:14:38 Because that little pink-haired freak was making it up for reasons of his own that I'm not to slander him on.

Payne Lindsey: 00:14:44 But did Ara make it up, too?

John "Catfish": 00:14:44 I don't know Ara.

Payne Lindsey: 00:14:47 And the landlord, and then Eli.

John "Catfish": 00:14:50 I don't know either one of them.

Payne Lindsey: 00:14:54 They both told me that Kristal told them she was raped at your house on June 28th. Why would Kristal make that up?

John "Catfish": 00:15:02 I wasn't even there then. That was the week after my birthday.

Payne Lindsey: 00:15:06 No, that's July.

John "Catfish": 00:15:07 And why would they make it up?

Payne Lindsey: 00:15:08 I'm talking about June 28th.

John "Catfish": 00:15:08 Also, you know what, sir? Do you want to cut the check today or do you want to cut this check later, because honestly, you're making some shit up and falsely accusing me of it. I know both of them and for a fact, they did not tell you that.

Payne Lindsey: 00:15:24 What are you talking about, cutting a check? What do you mean?

John "Catfish": 00:15:27 Like in half, 'cause I don't want any money out of this.

Payne Lindsey: 00:15:31 What do you mean? Like, check?

John "Catfish": 00:15:32 I don't want to earn off of this, you sicko. I don't want to falsely accuse me of this. I don't want to sound like a angry person like I am, but I am telling you, I'm getting 50 messages a day or more of people saying that this guy is fucking slandering me on this podcast thing. And I'm so innocent, I haven't even listened to the podcast. You're trying to frame me up for money.

Payne Lindsey: 00:15:55 I'm not trying to frame you, man.

John "Catfish": 00:15:56 Imagine someone you know and love coming up and putting that in your head in the middle of the night. That is a terrible thing to wake up to, and that's what's happened to me the past three years in a row. I wake up to people accusing me of shit like this. People that were friends, I thought. The truth is, everyone out there except for those who aren't, are all on manmade salts talking about who do you think's crazy and how. Think about that for a minute. And these are gonna be reliable and credible witnesses? Mmm, unlikely. A woman telling someone that she was raped at someone's house, anyone's house in particular, not mine at all. I don't do that kind of thing. That's one of the few crimes I'm against. I'm more against that one than I am the other one. There still isn't even a crime. She done been missing five times before and showed up in Dillard's. Maybe you should check the mall. I'm not trying to be funny, sir, but I am saying that for real, this has ruined my life and now you are attacking me. You are an official adversary at this point. If you wish my friendship, you need to come correct on some things and understand that I didn't have anything to do with this. I've been falsely accused, Joseph [inaudible 00:17:16], the CBI knows this, a few guys at the FBI know this. I know a few of them guys, in not necessarily the best ways.

John "Catfish": 00:17:28 Truth is, man, you've done said ... I don't know. What did you say about me that's got so many people telling me?

Payne Lindsey: 00:17:35 Literally all I did was I read the police report.

John "Catfish": 00:17:37 Just you're lying about her telling people that I raped her and stuff like that. You're absolutely lying about that. I know this for a fact. [crosstalk]

Payne Lindsey: 00:17:46 I never said that. That's other people who said that. That's what other people said.

John "Catfish": 00:17:50 No, you're lying to me when you say they said that.

Payne Lindsey: 00:17:53 That doesn't make sense.

John "Catfish": 00:17:53 You're saying they said things that they did not say.

Payne Lindsey: 00:17:58 I recorded people who told me that Kristal said that she was raped at your house on June 28th.

John "Catfish": 00:18:03 And I did the Roswell incident with a fucking 16 gauge in 1920.

Payne Lindsey: 00:18:09 My first call with Catfish was interesting to say the least, but not exactly productive. He was obviously angry that people in Crestone were suspicious of his involvement. But my main focus was on something different: Kristal's accusation that she was drugged and raped at his house on June 28, 2016. Let's go through what Kristal's friends have told me about this incident. This is Ara, Kristal's landlord.

Ara: 00:18:32 Catfish was the last person to call her on her phone, which was left behind in her apartment. When I started talking with her friends that were coming by looking for her, they all said the same thing, which was, "She has to be at Catfish's." I mean, we're talking like 15 people all said the same thing. When I put the two together of her saying, "I went to this party and got drugged and raped," and then I heard all those rumors and then she was headed over there as her last thing to do before she disappeared, it just leads me to believe that either something bad happened to her while she was there or after she was there.

Payne Lindsey: 00:19:06 And here's what the Crestone boyfriend told me.

Crestone BF: 00:19:12 She wanted me to stay with her because she had some fucked up shit happen to her at Catfish's. She was trying to tell me that it was really a lot of people over there but she didn't remember and I've never seen her that scared. She told me that she was held there against her will. She thought she might have gotten raped.

Payne Lindsey: 00:19:30 According to him, this happened on the night of June 28th.

Crestone BF: 00:19:33 When I went and picked her up from Catfish's house on June 28th, after she got raped, she was very mixed up about it. I wanted to go to the police about it. I was trying to talk to her, but she felt like she was too late, that she didn't do a rape kit or anything.

Payne Lindsey: 00:19:52 Since Kristal's been missing, he says that Catfish has tried several times to reach out to him on Facebook.

Crestone BF: 00:19:58 I blocked him, 'cause he kept trying to get a hold of me and stuff and he was just trying to send me all this peace and love shit. I had known that he had raped her. I blocked his account.

Payne Lindsey: 00:20:08 But it wasn't just the Crestone boyfriend who knew this story. Allegedly, Kristal told her ex-boyfriend, Eli, too, the father of her daughter.

Eli: 00:20:18 She told me all about that. She said she knew who was there and she says that she is positive it was them and it was Catfish, Bryan, and a third guy who she can't identify, she doesn't know. It's fuzzy to her because of the way that they drugged her. They sneaked it on her. She didn't know that they did that. It was fuzzy to her, but she knew that there was at least three guys there and one was Catfish and one of the other ones was Bryan. Dready Bryan is what they call him.

Payne Lindsey: 00:20:52 Back to my call with Catfish.

John "Catfish": 00:20:56 I mean, it's like this, man. You can accuse people of a lot of things, but I want to know is, what has been said on that podcast that's got my friends so up in arms about this, figuratively speaking. As in, just saying. Ain't nobody threatening you, nothing like that. What I'm saying is we don't do that kind of thing, either.

Payne Lindsey: 00:21:19 I'm just trying to ask about it.

John "Catfish": 00:21:20 And we usually don't hurt our sisters. That's the thing, is I barely knew her. I had no involvement with her. We never even kissed. I mean, there was none of that at all. I thought she was a little bit cute. I would have definitely considered it and such, but the truth is, we just hung out and that's the end of the story. That's where it begins and ends.

Payne Lindsey: 00:21:46 I'm just confused a little bit. I mean, I believe you.

John "Catfish": 00:21:49 You're confused?

Payne Lindsey: 00:21:49 Just help me out

John "Catfish": 00:21:49 Well that's just 'cause it's none of your damn business. What's that?

Payne Lindsey: 00:21:54 You said that you didn't know her very well, but she hung out with you and drank wine and smoked weed on your birthday?

John "Catfish": 00:21:59 I didn't say that.

Payne Lindsey: 00:21:59 Well the-

John "Catfish": 00:22:00 I did not say that.

Payne Lindsey: 00:22:03 That's-

John "Catfish": 00:22:04 You rewind that tape and prove what a liar you are. Sir, you're [crosstalk 00:22:08]

Payne Lindsey: 00:22:07 That's what the police report says.

John "Catfish": 00:22:07 There is no police report, you lying mother ... You are now ... What is this called? Extortion?

Payne Lindsey: 00:22:14 I'll send it to you.

John "Catfish": 00:22:14 You want some extorsion?

Payne Lindsey: 00:22:17 I'll send it to you. What's your email address? I'll send it to you.

John "Catfish": 00:22:19 Where do you live?

Payne Lindsey: 00:22:21 I'll send you the police report.

John "Catfish": 00:22:24 You will send me the police report. Why the hell would they give you a copy of the police report when they've been ordered to stand down on it themselves? I have an executive order. This is bullshit. So yeah, I'll take it. I'll tell you what, I'll message you back. I just got home from a four-hour bike ride, all right? So I'm a little bit amped up. Let me send you an email in the next five minutes. I need to calm down, have a drink. Thank you.

Payne Lindsey: 00:22:52 I sent him a copy of the police report, written by Saguache County Deputy Wayne Clark, which detailed his brief interesting with Catfish a few weeks after she went missing. In the report, according to Wayne, Catfish states that he was hanging out with Kristal around his birthday, which is July 21st, and that they drank wine and smoked marijuana. And then the next day, Kristal got up and left but she didn't tell Catfish where she was going. Catfish also said that he didn't know her that well.

Payne Lindsey: 00:23:20 Perhaps one of the biggest allegations we've heard thus far, besides Kristal saying that she was drugged and raped at Catfish's house, is Catfish himself claiming that Dready Brian confessed to killing her on Facebook Messenger. He said Brian confessed in a message and that he shared this information with the Colorado Bureau of Investigation. I called the CBI myself to confirm they had this and they told me they did. But when I talked to Catfish, he kept telling me that he couldn't release it. He said he'd face a 25-year prison sentence for interfering with the investigation. That seemed a little strange to me. After all, the message was sent to him. He should be able to do whatever he wants with it. And this information could essentially clear him, right?

CBI voicemail: 00:23:58 ... for calling the Colorado Bureau of Investigation Identification Unit.

Payne Lindsey: 00:24:05 So I called the CBI again and I asked them point blank if Catfish could share this message, and the CBI agent working this case told me yes. Catfish can share the message with anyone. Wow. That's amazing. So I reached back out to Catfish to share the great news.

John "Catfish": 00:24:33 Brother, I don't think you understand. I don't even get out anymore because of this. For like three years now, this is my only chance to have any daytime or whatever. I'm skipping the day, blah, blah, blah. I'm not normally such a sounding of a fucking freaky person. I'm saying that I am being harassed, stalked ... You're making podcasts about me? I ain't watched one second of one of them. Don't you think a guilty person might want to consider doing so? You know if I had done it, I would watch it. I guarantee that. I do have iTunes.

Payne Lindsey: 00:25:05 I talked to the CBI. They said that you could give me the information.

John "Catfish": 00:25:09 Who at the CBI told you I could release that information to you?

Payne Lindsey: 00:25:12 Joseph [censored].

John "Catfish": 00:25:13 Why did he not release it to you, then?

Payne Lindsey: 00:25:15 I guess he couldn't release it to me, but he said that you could. You can ask him yourself.

John "Catfish": 00:25:22 I don't need to. You saying it is good enough. Me and Joe are good that way. Hey, Joe, if you're on the phone by the way little girl.

Payne Lindsey: 00:25:26 Well, I think we could clear your name pretty quickly in one episode ...

John "Catfish": 00:25:29 I don't even care about that.

Payne Lindsey: 00:25:29 ... of the podcast with that information.

John "Catfish": 00:25:31 My life's been destroyed over that situation. Once a person's accused of that.

Payne Lindsey: 00:25:35 Well, I mean, you have the proof, though, right, with the message from Brian?

John "Catfish": 00:25:39 The problem with that is, once a person's accused of a crime like that ... Hold on. Once a person ... I can't hear you. Once a person's accused of some crimes like that, people don't ever remember if they were acquitted, or maybe they had a good attorney, or nothing because I never considered anyone to ever be innocent of it once until this down here, pretty much. Maybe Cosby, 'cause maybe she knew what she was getting into. I really don't know. I mean, hell, maybe I'd let him fuck me for enough Quaaludes.

John "Catfish": 00:26:03 But all jokes aside.

Payne Lindsey: 00:26:07 Did Brian say that he killed her? 'Cause if he did, then it's as simple as that.

John "Catfish": 00:26:11 Who? Dready Brian?

Payne Lindsey: 00:26:12 Yeah.

John "Catfish": 00:26:13 It's a direct confession and I have server side and my end, my computer's side, time stamped.

Payne Lindsey: 00:26:19 Let's put it out there, man. Let's prove your innocence right now.

John "Catfish": 00:26:21 So problem is, I lost all my computers when I lost my home over this kind of crap. So I'm having to get back into an online storage thing. And listen to me here, friend. This is for real, like I'm being very real with you. Why can we not release her real name?

Payne Lindsey: 00:26:40 What do you mean?

John "Catfish": 00:26:41 Makes me scared. I'm not afraid of the fucking government, like cops and shit like that.

Payne Lindsey: 00:26:45 I don't understand. What is her real name?

John "Catfish": 00:26:47 I'm not allowed to release her real name.

Payne Lindsey: 00:26:50 What's her real name?

John "Catfish": 00:26:51 Katherine Weisenberg. And there's only six of them in the entire Census Bureau data that was available to me at the time I looked at it.

Payne Lindsey: 00:27:01 That doesn't make any sense.

John "Catfish": 00:27:03 Well, I would kind of concur. That's usually when I back the hell off of some kind of situation like that, considering there's some kind of Department of Defense thing or something. You might want to say it sounds a bit paranoid. So does that fact that I've been told by official channels not to release her name. A hippie chick. And I'm not disrespecting her at all. I just don't get annoyed. At this point, basically, I'm starting to try to teach myself not to care what's going on with her. Okay, I'm going through my own personal drama today. It's like this, but I hella care. But that's the caring person. Okay.

John "Catfish": 00:27:37 She ... Her name, excuse me, is Katherine. It could be Caryn, like the Celtic spelling. I'm pretty sure it was Katherine. You understand when I was going through this data, I knew who was coming to see me the next morning, okay?

Payne Lindsey: 00:27:52 So was she a different person?

John "Catfish": 00:27:53 What it means is, I'm guessing like this. Say you want to change your ... No, I don't think that part of it has any WITSEC type stuff to do with it, honestly, because they would come up with a more clever name. It's just the hippie version. What would Katherine Weisinger ... What was it? Weisinger. Thank you, sir ... change her name to to have a cool hippie name? It would be likely the name that's on the posters and stuff. Which I donated computer equipment for them to be made, so I mean ...

John "Catfish": 00:28:25 Anyways. The point is, is that why are we sitting on our hands when there is a file saying that I am no longer a person of interest or suspect in this situation and have provided all information available, signed off by two people, sitting in a file while there's some other person like you [crosstalk 00:28:50]?

Payne Lindsey: 00:28:50 How soon can you get the file? If you can give it to me, man, I will put it out there for the world to see.

John "Catfish": 00:28:53 On audio, Payne? You'll put it out for the whole world to see?

Payne Lindsey: 00:28:58 I mean, yeah. I can just read it. I guess it was pretty funny. He kept bringing up the Facebook message, but when I told him could release it, he had a different reason he couldn't give it to me. He lost his computers and has to log into some cloud account, or something like that. But maybe the weirdest thing he said was that Kristal had a different name. That Kristal Reisinger wasn't even her real name. What is that even supposed to mean? Apparently, he gained access to some super secret government files. Sounds unlikely. But even if it were true ... Well, where is she? And didn't Brian confess to Catfish that he killed her? How could both of these things be true?

Payne Lindsey: 00:29:31 He went on to tell me that he's been in communication with some random people on the internet, likely trolls. To be clear, I have no idea who these people are, and there's no connection to me or Up and Vanished, but he found it pretty irritating.

John "Catfish": 00:29:44 Well, he's trying to shake me down using the same information you are. Oh, he messaged me today. "Fish, you better run. They found a body." Well, where the hell I'm gonna run? Why would I fucking even care almost other than I'm a caring person? Implying as if, "Oh, no. You done caught me." I have about 50 people a day contacting me, claiming to be working for you.

Payne Lindsey: 00:30:07 I can promise you that no one that works for me or with me has ever reached out to you but me.

John "Catfish": 00:30:12 No matter what we think I done, I'd be out by now and I'd claim time served for all mankind for all the hell I've been through, basically. I've considered fucking confessing to a prank at the end by going, "Just saying," and then showing them the information about who really said they did it. I did not do anything to hurt this woman at all. I barely knew her. She come over like, twice. She was a bit crazy, like all of them people say are, you know? I sound the craziest, probably because I've been hunted like this. Fucking hunted for like, three years, and no one managed two, to break the glass, and three, to miss my ass kind of thing. Where are the vigilantes at on it? I will say this on free will here, sure. Whoever you got there with you is fine. You can hear this two, officer. Or agent, excuse me.

John "Catfish": 00:30:59 If I thought someone I knew and lived near or whatever said ... First of all, no one has anything on me. All they say is, "So and so said that so and so said that so and so saw him take the trash out in an orange van," or something. Do we see me driving an orange van ever once, not even in Scooby Doo? And all these people were my friends and my family, I thought. I trust none of them. That was a peaceful, beautiful, spiritual community when I moved there. People smoked pot, ate mushrooms, things like that. Then the other stuff, the smoky stuff, the whatever come through and it fucking ... I'm not blaming it, 'cause what people do is what people do, and what you gotta do is whatever you gotta do.

John "Catfish": 00:31:49 But this is just a disrespect to me and I'm not gonna take it to the level of, "We just want justice for her daughter," and stuff. I have heard that so many times at me.

Payne Lindsey: 00:32:03 We can clear you.

John "Catfish": 00:32:05 I don't really ... I mean, I appreciate that. So can I, 'cause now I have permission to do so myself. If you believe me to be innocent, then please do so. If you don't, then frankly don't, because for the past couple years, I've been wanting them to make me force myself to prove my innocence on this. Not to the point of being dumb enough to actually directly cause it intentionally, but even talking with you against my counsel is the dumbest thing I could do. But it's like to me, I don't really care much about retro ... active, or whatever it is ... blame, and punishment and stuff. What I do care about is making sure that whoever did it doesn't do it again.

John "Catfish": 00:32:53 The fact that I'm telling you ... Dready Brian accused me of hacking into his Facebook and without commenting on that much, I say to him that ... I said, "Hey listen. Why did you ..." Okay, he's never blocked anyone before except her sometime in July. I forget when it was, like July 18th or something, he blocked her on Facebook. Now, about a thousand women probably have blocked him. But he blocked one person one time in his life and it was her. I said, "So why did you do this? Don't accuse me of hacking some shit. It doesn't matter." So then he said these words ... I'm not gonna say the words. "Brian [censored] killed her," is what he typed.

Payne Lindsey: 00:33:51 Did he say it like, "I did," or ...

John "Catfish": 00:33:52 He used the words like you just said there, like that you did it.

Payne Lindsey: 00:33:56 Like I. I see, okay.

John "Catfish": 00:33:59 Yeah, that I'm definitely not gonna be going to court and saying.

Payne Lindsey: 00:34:01 I see what you're saying. Yeah, no.

John "Catfish": 00:34:01 You see how that works? Then I'm the ...

Payne Lindsey: 00:34:01 No, I get it, yeah.

John "Catfish": 00:34:06 That's why the boys don't trust me to talk to you, that kind of thing. And if you were gonna frame up an innocent man, using some trick on me like that, while I'm obviously under more mental distress, that's the only reason why I was willing. I thought I was gonna have to climb back in the system to get the files because all my computers were stolen and stuff. But then I remember how they received them, which means they're still there. I just have 132-some files that I have to look through and [crosstalk]

Payne Lindsey: 00:34:35 Could you get them to me?

John "Catfish": 00:34:37 I could. My internet is working overtime defending itself from what I'm assuming to be a bunch of ... You don't know these people that claim to work for you? Couldn't we do like a 1-900-6 something numbers. I'm not picking on your thing, I just haven't watched it. All I've heard is everyone calling me telling me that, "This guy's accused you of this and that," and stuff. And I like the fact ... I want to watch it. I'm a little curious what you're saying. But to my-

Payne Lindsey: 00:35:03 The last episode, I put in there what you said. I said that there's this message out there that Brian [censored] sent that claims that he did it. If you have it, I promise you I will put it out there.

John "Catfish": 00:35:14 Like I said, I have about an hour and a half of daylight today that I haven't been outside yet to do. I need that, okay? I need that more than I need the money, more than anything. And the thing about the money with you is only because I know that my name is not just some name picked out of some kind of random thing, and there's a few different things involved. And I'm not shaking you down here, I'm suggesting you don't pay that much. But that-

Payne Lindsey: 00:35:41 What would I be paying you for, exactly? I didn't understand that part.

John "Catfish": 00:35:45 For ruining my likeness and my name, which is internationally copy written, yes.

Payne Lindsey: 00:35:50 Which one? Catfish?

John "Catfish": 00:35:52 Yeah. All of them, but yes.

Payne Lindsey: 00:35:56 Is that even possible?

John "Catfish": 00:35:57 It actually is. I mean, I'm not the suit, man. I don't know. But just say it was a movie about a band or something, or the band's cool, that kind of thing, whatever. And the truth is, I could use some fucking scratch right now. But honestly, I'm a photographer for most of my life and they would literally starve these chicks for days before they gave them photo shoots, and some of them would get them hooked on things to make them look extra desperate and hungry, so those hungry eyes, those panda eyes would sell more jeans. That's when I dropped out of that fucking scene right there.

John "Catfish": 00:36:36 Okay, this guy that messaged me, the reason I'm asking if he worked with you is he's messaging me saying, "They found the body." Like I'm supposed to all, "Oh no!" As if I would know where or it wouldn't sadden me that she's not still just high at the park or something. Which I say rudely, now. I realize this. But the truth is, for all I know, that's what's happening. Like I said, for the thing Brian said-

Payne Lindsey: 00:37:06 Do you believe Brian? Or do you think he's lying, too?

John "Catfish": 00:37:09 Brian's a total lying piece of shit, honestly. Why would he lie about something like that where he did the bait on Facebook Messenger thing and he says, "All right, fine, fuck it, because I ..." And he said that. And I thought to myself, "I'm gonna screenshot this and block him so he cannot redact it," and that's exactly what I did. I've seen things about him, natures and then fights he's tried at me, things like that. At this point, what I'm saying is, I'm literally considering some really fuck around and find out kind of fucking strength with it, because ...

John "Catfish": 00:37:52 Well, I mean, when I was first accused of that stuff and told I'm facing 20 years in prison and all that stuff, I didn't want everyone saying, "But John wouldn't hurt a butterfly," or fly or whatever it was. I was thinking to myself, I might actually not want to be that peaceful looking if I'm actually going in this skinny looking. It might be kind of like some kind of ... Basically I still have no been charged with anything. I haven't even tried to convince you really of my non-involvement in this situation-

Payne Lindsey: 00:38:32 'Cause you just don't have to, I guess.

John "Catfish": 00:38:35 I'm not saying it wouldn't be smart, necessarily, though. The point is, just imagine, first three years coming out of a town like that and everyone you talk with has done heard something that someone heard about someone they know. There's no firsthand anything as far as I know.

Payne Lindsey: 00:38:59 Except for the message you have, to be honest.

John "Catfish": 00:39:01 The reason why they're still sitting on that in my non-legal opinion ... That doesn't mean it's illegal opinion. You know what, folks? My jokes don't have to be funny, but the fact that this bloke's still got jokes is hilarious, 'cause I've been through hell and she wasn't there either.

John "Catfish": 00:39:21 Put me back on track. I got real bad ADD and anxiety and such. What was the question?

Payne Lindsey: 00:39:26 Why haven't they just gone to pick up Brian? What are they waiting on?

John "Catfish": 00:39:28 Because they can't do that twice. This situation with them not having any crime been committed, in the happiest way I could possibly phrase that, I figured that's why they were sitting on it.

Payne Lindsey: 00:39:42 'Cause there's no body?

John "Catfish": 00:39:44 I'm thinking there's not. That's true. It is. It's true that I'm thinking there's not.

Payne Lindsey: 00:39:50 I actually just meant that they hadn't found Kristal's body, not that there may no longer be a body. That was interesting.

Payne Lindsey: 00:39:58 What do you think Brian did to her?

John "Catfish": 00:40:00 Honestly, I don't know what any man could have done to her, because quite frankly, she was not a small-framed woman. She was not fat. She was not one of them dolls. She was probably 5'9", 5'10", something like that. Check into this, then. She won a lawsuit against him the day or two before she went missing. That wouldn't be a reason for me to act violently against anybody for any reason whatsoever, but for somebody that has that predisposition already ... I'm not an abnormal psychologist, professor or anything, although I probably could get my PhD somewhere. I'd rather it not be Folsom.

John "Catfish": 00:40:45 My uncle would try to take me hunting and stuff and I wouldn't even go with them to be with them, 'cause I'm like, "We got food in the refrigerator." But I'm not all super squeamish, I'm just kind of not into blood and guts and gore. Sorry, dropped the phone. I gotta go here in a second.

John "Catfish": 00:41:08 But okay, what would he have done with her? You're the one that does this for a living. I'm the one who has never come close to ever once being accused of anything like this. Brian is a skinny junkie that's done a bunch of pushups from being in jail for whole six month stints here and there. Basically, he has upper body strength to have fought her, to maybe win if she wasn't in her full faculties or something. But honestly, them two in a boxing ring and some gloves and she'd probably knock his ass out. I'm just saying that she was not skinny and small.

John "Catfish": 00:41:46 No, see, you planned this call. I'm not pre-texting shit. I'm trying to get out the door in a fucking emergency hurry 'cause I can see this daylight fading from me, and the truth is I'm just getting dressed and brushing my teeth and getting ready to go. And I supposed this kind of conversation does make me a bit uncomfortable, though. It makes sense as well.

Payne Lindsey: 00:42:06 Did you say that someone stole your computers and that's why you can't give me the message?

John "Catfish": 00:42:10 I am missing four Mac Pros from my house. When I left, they stole everything, brother. If you're not law enforcement and you're not enforcement, me mentioning names about some of the people that have slandered me would be silly. Basically all of them. That's what freaks me out about Brian. That's why I don't know how to answer your questions so well, is I was introduced to him, told this is good family you need to know. It was Christmas. And I said to him, "Well why didn't I know you then?" Just jokingly, and then I felt a little bit guilty with it being Christmas and stuff for being rude to him like that. Anyways, we ended up being so-called friends, I thought. Then he stole my mom's credit card for $16,000, confessed to that. I have a video of that somewhere, but it's all on ... Basically, I thought I was being clever with cloud storage. You know how when you over-password things and you can't be the one account to get your damn account so you can't prove you're either one kind of thing. When you gotta hide your keys when you're drunk at night, basically. Not you personally. Me. I know I'm your driver. Not no more. All right then. Fine, friend. I'll find new employment. I'm actually not crazy like that, I'm just under that much stress that I really ... I'm trying to see some daylight today, man.

Payne Lindsey: 00:43:34 I asked him about Landon, one of the guys we heard from briefly in episode six.

Payne Lindsey: 00:43:38 Do you think [censored] involved with Brian, too? 'Cause that's what I've been hearing.

John "Catfish": 00:43:41 People keep telling me that, but with this stuff I hear of myself, I'm hesitant to even accuse the people have confessed to it. You see what I mean? That's why it's interesting, though, having the time server stamp with both obviously, because...

Payne Lindsey: 00:43:55 You have to give me that. It'll be huge to put that out there.

John "Catfish": 00:43:59 How can I earn off of this situation is kind of the thought that crossed through my mind, but I tried to ask you for bitcoin. Okay, over a thousand people have done Checkmate background checks on me alone in the past month. That's a thousand people spending $39.95 to look up my name because you mentioned it on a podcast.

Payne Lindsey: 00:44:26 Well, we actually censored it.

John "Catfish": 00:44:27 I'm kinda thinking that ... So wait, if you're not my problem with that situation, then I got a whole nother problem with a situation because $39 times a thousand people is $39,000.

Payne Lindsey: 00:44:43 Do you want to help me find Kristal, too?

John "Catfish": 00:44:47 No. It's like this. Sure. But once they put me into it, like say mention my name being involved or something like that, I wasn't exactly supposed to put on a raincoat, like that you wore as a little kid at the beach or something, metal flashlight walking around a mineshaft or something like that, and going, "I done found her!" Do you realize how weird that would have looked? There are a bunch of psychics that know me out there claiming to know, and they all got different stories. I can't ask you to drop this one, because I'm involved in it. But if this was just a hypothetical situation, this is one I sure as shit would walk away from, but it's too late for you to do so. I agree. So let's close it up proper.

John "Catfish": 00:45:39 I need you to understand, if you'd be willing to, that it's not my job to prove my innocence, not according to Congress and that kind of thing. And it definitely ... If you knew me, I am the one guy that didn't do it for sure. That's why I'm saying, yeah, I'm eating a candy bar on my way out the door but the point is, we know I didn't say that. We know that no ... I can not imagine that someone might have said, the person that would say something like that.

Payne Lindsey: 00:46:17 Wasn't she last seen at your house, though?

John "Catfish": 00:46:18 That's what I'm talking about, sir. Last seen, we don't know what month she went missing. What I was saying is we do know this much. I sure as shit didn't say that.

Payne Lindsey: 00:46:31 What was she like when she left? Did she say she was gonna go somewhere or something? Or did she seem like she was gonna meet up with Brian or something?

John "Catfish": 00:46:40 She wanted to go meet with some guy I don't know. Maybe you mentioned him in this event. Didn't help me one bit, that's for sure.

Payne Lindsey: 00:46:49 I mean, that guy is probably what happened to her.

John "Catfish": 00:46:52 I know.

Payne Lindsey: 00:46:53 Do you think it was Brian? Did she describe that guy she was going to meet?

John "Catfish": 00:46:58 Big Cat. That was it, and that makes it sound like some alter ego of mine. I didn't remember this for years, though, after I was interviewed. So yeah, it doesn't really speak well of me to be saying it now when I've been advised by like, four attorneys not to.

Payne Lindsey: 00:47:11 Big Cat? Who on earth is Big Cat? Nowhere ever have I heard this name, and it's certainly not in the police report. Why is he telling me now? The bottom line is that all these things can't be true. Brian confessing to killing her, Kristal having some undercover government name, and now the last thing Kristal said was she was going to see some guy named Big Cat? But if the Big Cat story's true, then he may hold the key to solving this.

Payne Lindsey: 00:47:34 Do you think that Big Cat guy and Brian are the people who did something? I'm trying to make a connecting.

John "Catfish": 00:47:41 I don't know. I can't imagine hurting someone over money or any other reason really like that. I could only hurt somebody if it was an immediate and direct defense of my life or someone else's and I would still feel guilt and would have done confessed instantly about it if I had. They killed a sister of ours. The reason why they did it is not one question I'm gonna ask. Jack Ruby had a minute and 45 seconds to run and didn't move his boots once.

Payne Lindsey: 00:48:09 I mean, Brian should pay for it then, you know?

John "Catfish": 00:48:12 How's he gonna pay for it? By us putting him in the state, paying for his hatred? He won't last any longer on the street. For one, what if he was joking? As ill humored of a joke it would be. Two, say that I kind of do think he did it at this point ...

Payne Lindsey: 00:48:35 Do you think he was joking?

John "Catfish": 00:48:36 I do think he did it at this point. But say he's removed from the usual lineup. Who's next in line to accept that

Payne Lindsey: 00:48:49 Big Cat?

John "Catfish": 00:48:50 Look, I know you so well and I know this smart conversation here, it's all friendly games and I know enough to know that you don't really believe and care about paying for it. You can't pay for a life back. I mean, a person can try. Like I'll take $35 million, that kind of thing. But there's not a-

Payne Lindsey: 00:49:09 There's no replacement.

John "Catfish": 00:49:11 No. And this thing I keep hearing about, "We just want her child to have justice," and stuff ... Listen, if her child at ... what? Four or five years old or so, is already vindictive enough to need to know who did it and punish them, then that scares me on a Chucky had children and they're real kind of thing.

Payne Lindsey: 00:49:36 I don't know. When I met her, she was crying and she gave me a hug and she was like, "I'm so glad someone's looking for my mommy." I don't know, it was kind of heartfelt.

John "Catfish": 00:49:43 Okay, see, I never met her. I didn't know her family. I only hung out with Kristal like, twice, and apparently ... I'm not gonna say anything bad about her, but her and I never hooked up, nothing. It was a thought. She was pretty. It was like that. My father is just getting home. I was supposed to be gone an hour ago. Hey Dad, I'm on the phone with the guy from the podcast. I decided to throw it all away for nothing, basically.

Payne Lindsey: 00:50:05 Hey, Dad.

John "Catfish": 00:50:06 So look, sir, I need to go now. The reason that I don't care what they've done to her, kind of, necessarily, and why I think it's sick that you think that her daughter should have to care is that ... If your mother is removed from your life in a situation like that ... God forbid that happen to anyone ... at four years old, you're vendettive enough to need to know the name and place of the person? I mean, it is pretty extreme to me, when the reason I would tell the truth and have been telling the full truth and will continue to-

Payne Lindsey: 00:50:44 I think she's just sad.

John "Catfish": 00:50:46 Right, but people keep coming at me with the same canvas of basically why would he do that? It's unimaginable to me. I mean, people have really offended me in my lifetime. There have been some fights that I've been in, things like that, and at no point have I ever gone out to hurt someone that I can think of, man. Look, if she went missing five times before and we found her at Dillard's every time then, maybe we should check Bealles. I mean, I-

Payne Lindsey: 00:51:22 Where should we check now?

John "Catfish": 00:51:26 It's destroying my life. I can't answer these questions right now. I need my daylight.

Payne Lindsey: 00:51:32 I don't want to hold you up.

John "Catfish": 00:51:33 You find out who did it for sure. There is no justifiable reason, whether she was talking to cops or whether she was stealing from people or whether she was doing anything at all. There's never a just time. My point is, that there is never ... The question of, "Why was it done to me?" is quite honestly ... See I indemnified you from the situation, so you thought until the copyright thing came up, which I'm not against you on. I do not want to spend the rest of my year in court any more than I want to spend the rest of my year in jail. But I would like some money. I'd like to know how much some files would be worth to you. I'm asking you if that sounds like a selfish thing to ask.

John "Catfish": 00:52:25 I have obviously every ability to watch the podcast or something, and have yet to see what's being said about me is not something a guilty person would do.

Payne Lindsey: 00:52:42 Wouldn't you want to know what people are saying?

John "Catfish": 00:52:45 Not when it's the same lies that are ruining me for so long now. She was a friend of ours. She was a friend of mine, and you've got theories, suggestions of what might have been horribly done to her, so it's like this. I'm great at out of the gate, really, but walking down the middle of the street with 98 that are to afraid to say what they know is true and that's the [inaudible 00:53:12], man.

John "Catfish": 00:53:12 Basically, I think the whole story is, sir, that Brian will pay for it either way. But say he were to be removed from the situation, hypothetically, then they find her somewhere a few years later, a few decades later, I don't know. Natural causes fifty years from now and I'm down on my luck in a coffee shop somewhere, he's no longer available for a lineup. But that's selfish of me at this point. I keep hoping that it's like all the other times she'd been missing. A lot of missing people go missing. I realize that didn't sound that intellectelligent, just 'cause you know exactly why. Just remove yourself from your own person here for a minute, but someone you know, love, and care about goes missing and for years you're worrying about it, you've even been accused of stuff. Everyone has come to me with every possible ... I don't know every way a person can leave the earth, they could die or whatever. But I know there's things called 10,000 Faces of Death and I don't watch them TV shows either. But what I'm saying is, I've heard every possible reason that I've never even thought of, such as a reason to buckle your seat belt, a reason not to buckle your seat belts. Airbags kill people, too. Meaning, "John, are you sure you didn't have something to do with it?" Being asked of me by people that know damn well I didn't have anything to do with it.

John "Catfish": 00:54:54 Dready Brian, I will have him meet me at a train station if you find that kid. And truth is, he's a druggie. He'll meet you somewhere for $200 and a half a gram of black, probably.

Payne Lindsey: 00:55:04 Do you know where he is? I can't find the guy.

John "Catfish": 00:55:07 He came back to Crestone, at random back to our town. He may have only made it halfway home. I'm not sure. Yes, I'm joking, but honestly, that's part of what I was trying to explain to you earlier with fuck around and find out, kind of.

Payne Lindsey: 00:55:24 I mean, I think the Big Cat guy should be questioned, don't you?

John "Catfish": 00:55:28 I have leaked his name to the local bureau already a long time ago. Questioning somebody that they don't know a real name for that has a similarity to mine is not going to be taken kindly by me, for that to be taken seriously. I never saw him. All she said was she was needing to meet him.

Payne Lindsey: 00:55:54 For what?

John "Catfish": 00:55:55 I really don't feel it was my business to talk to him. The truth is, I didn't see the guy. I've never met the guy.

Payne Lindsey: 00:56:07 What day was that? Around what day did she leave? Kind of like...

John "Catfish": 00:56:11 I remember the evening quite well. Go to hell, sir. I mean, seriously? What evening was that? I don't even know what month it is. You want to reconnect with me, you give me the space right now sir, or we cut it.

Payne Lindsey: 00:56:22 Okay. I'll give you the space. Call me back.

John "Catfish": 00:56:25 Mother fucker. That's what happens when you try to shake somebody down for $75,000. Well, that's how I come at you, right? With a bitcoin request for $75,000? Well, it's a pretty big harm to my life that's happening and I could use a whole lot of come up money right now. But that was just what my napkin said.

Payne Lindsey: 00:56:46 Throughout all my conversations, he kept bringing up money and bitcoin. How much money do I want, stuff like that. It didn't make any sense whatsoever and I myself never mentioned this once, and I'm clearly not in the business of sending or receiving money from him. I asked him again about the last time he saw Kristal.

John "Catfish": 00:57:02 She showed up. We hung out for a bit. She left the next day, after she was upset on the phone about her rent or something. Anyways, and that's to the best of my recollect, last time I saw her. But I sure as anything guarantee you that is the very first time I have said that to anyone.

Payne Lindsey: 00:57:28 Was she mad about the rent?

John "Catfish": 00:57:30 She was very upset. She was actually very, very, very upset about it because she was being unjustly kicked out of her place from what I was hearing. I was in the background screaming to speak with the landlord, the money, just everything.

Payne Lindsey: 00:57:43 She couldn't afford it, I guess, right? She was out of money or something? Or what?

John "Catfish": 00:57:45 I have no idea. Sir, I barely knew her. Honestly, I met her at a party, invited her over. She came over either that night or the next day and hung out that night. We smoked some pot, drank some wine, things like that and whatnot, and then maybe one or two other times that I hang out with her. That's all I fucking know, sir.

Payne Lindsey: 00:58:06 You knew her before that, right?

John "Catfish": 00:58:07 You know what I think, though? Is it's not your job to be harassing me after I said I need space. That's what I mother fucking know.

Payne Lindsey: 00:58:13 You can have it, man. It's fine. It's cool.

John "Catfish": 00:58:17 You know, it kind of would be until it happens to you. So give me this space before I say some cruel stuff, please.

Payne Lindsey: 00:58:23 Okay.

John "Catfish": 00:58:23 If you find some evidence that says I done it, you air it and whatever you want to do because there is none of it.

Voicemail: 00:58:27 You have one unheard message.

Big Cat: 00:58:39 Hey, my name is [censored]. I just got a message from somebody saying that my name was brought up with the Kristal disappearance and that you were trying to get a hold of me. I'd like to clear up anything that was said.

Payne Lindsey: 00:58:50 I found Big Cat, and he wants to talk.

Meredith S: 00:59:08 Up and Vanished is an investigative podcast told weekly, produced for Tenderfoot TV by Payne Lindsey, Mike Rooney, and me, Meredith Stedman, with new episodes every Monday. Executive producers Payne Lindsey and Donald Albright. Additional production by Resonate Recordings, as well as Mason Lindsey, Rob Ricotta, and Christina Dana. Our intern is Hallie Bedol. Original score by Makeup and Vanity Set. Our theme song is Ophelia performed by Ezza Rose. Our cover art is by Trevor Isler. Special thanks to the team at Cadence13. Visit us on social media via @upandvanished, or you can visit our website, upandvanished.com, where you can join in on our discussion board.

Meredith S: 01:00:03 If you're enjoying Up and Vanished, tell a friend, family member, or co-worker about it, and don't forget to subscribe, rate, and review on Apple Podcasts. Thanks for listening.